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Speaker: Abdullah Abdullah, Foreign Minister for the Transitional Islamic State of Afghanistan

Presider: James V. Kimsey, AOL

October 17, 2002
Washington, D.C.

Robert Orr [RO]: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Bob Orr, the Director of the Council here in Washington. I'd like to welcome you this evening. I know it's kind of a rainy evening so I doubly appreciate you all coming after work. And I know why you're here. So I won't take any time. Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah is known to all of you. He has become a larger than life public figure here in the United States.

I'd like to ask Jim Kimsey to preside tonight. I think also here in Washington everyone knows of Jim's business exploits as the founder and chairman of America Online, but I think equally important is his humanitarian streak that is about a mile wide. He runs his own foundation and has been Chairman of the Board of Directors of Refugees International, among many other things. Jim, I'd like to turn it over to you.

James V. Kimsey [JVK]: Thank you. I'm going to just make a couple of points here that I've been asked to make. If you have any cell phones that are turned on, please turn them off. I'm going to introduce the foreign minister and then we'll, after he finishes, ask for questions, which I'm sure there are going to be many. I'll probably start off asking the first one and we will end promptly at seven-thirty. I'm going to read a couple of things from the minister’s bio, just so I don't forget them. Because they're interesting.

As most of you know, Dr. Abdullah Abdullah was appointed as the Foreign Minister of the Transitional Islamic State of Afghanistan after the UN-sponsored national loya jirga, which was comprised of 1500 selected officials around the country.

He was born in September of 1960, which makes him a nice young fellow. (Laughter) He graduated from Nadiria High School in 1976 and then went on to study ophthalmology at Kabul's University Department of Medicine where he received an MD degree in 1983. From '84 to '85 he served as a resident ophthalmologist at N'oor(?) I Institute in Kabul. From '85 to '86 he worked in the ophthalmology hospital for afghan refugees in Peshawar. In '86 he became the special advisor and chief assistant to Ahmad Shah Masoud and served in that capacity till 1992. From '93 to '96 he served as director general of the Ministry of Defense in Kabul.

He's done many interesting things since then, and of course he's now the ... he was selected as the Minister of Foreign Affairs for the Interim Administration of Afghanistan under Chairman Hamid Karzai. Mr. Minister?

Abdullah Abdullah [AA]: Thank you. (Applause) Thank you very much. It's always a pleasure to address the distinguished participants in the Council on Foreign Relations. Last time which I did so it was January. And of course a few weeks ago I was ... I accompanied President Karzai in New York when the president had to address the Council on Foreign Relations.

Coincidentally, on both occasions, my address has been after a long journey. (Laughter) So I have an excuse if I missed points during my statement now or later on during questions ... questions and answers. Afghanistan, from being a point or a center for instability and a main threat to global peace, peace in the region and global peace - now, it has turned into a point of instability in that region. There are hopes for prosperity of Afghanistan, yet(?) as a result of that situation the whole region can be prosperous and peaceful. This is briefly what has happened in my country in the course of one year or so, after September 11th.

Talking about positive developments, I will ask you to focus just for a second about the potential which existed there for termination prior to September 11th. Talking about the changes, we all are witness to the changes. But I was also witness to the great potential for termination of the situation at that time, for the menace of terrorism turning into a menace which could not be controlled. They were just about to spread their grip throughout the region before September 11th.

Then, tragedies of September 11th and later on, action led by the United States, support from the people of Afghanistan in the resistance which existed there prior to September 11th against terrorism. The efforts of the international community as a whole led to the Bonn agreement later on, loyal jirga and formation of transitional Islamic State of Afghanistan and so on and so on.

As the interim government some ten months…we were not the continuation of ... we did not start it as the continuation of another government in Afghanistan. We started from dealing with a country which was ruined for 23 years. We started from below zero. Our main priority was security, and it still is. And, so I may start from security and developments in that.

Overall, the security situation has improved throughout the country, in Kabul, the capital, in the highways in different parts of the country. There have been some serious security incidents as well throughout, like the assassination attempt against President Karzai recently, a few weeks ago, or a few months ago, and some other unfortunate incidents. But when those things have happened one should read it in the context of development in Afghanistan.

(Laughs) I am reluctant to give an example, we'll be near the sniper, wandering around here and there. (Chuckling) They can create such concerns and such problems for everybody, headaches for everybody. We are talking about a country in which terrorism, Osama bin Laden was able to establish its roots in that country, then expand its networks in the country, throughout the region and beyond the region. Now we are talking about restoration of security in such uncertainty. That should be on our minds all the time. But there security has improved.

We are talking about the security in a country that it hasn't got a national police force, it hasn't got a national army yet, and other security institutions. Still, the highways are secure, the cities are secure. Terrorists are terrorists, they can post threats everywhere, they can create problems everywhere, and they have created some problems in our country as well. A year ago, they used to control some 80 percent of our soil. Now they are in the land but they don't want to admit that they have been defeated in Afghanistan. They want to show that they are still there. They wanted to prove by those incidents that the efforts against them have been a failure. Which is I think in itself it is a failure attempt by terrorist groups.

The people of Afghanistan have turned against them, the world has joined in a coalition, has started a campaign in Afghanistan against them. They have no chance of winning. They are on the losing side right from the beginning. They don't want to admit it now, they will have to some time in the future.

We are working with our international partners in termination of national landmines, FU battalions have been trained, but very recently. Discussions on the formation of the national army and a national council of defense, which is representative of all countries, was finalized. So now there is an agreement on the size of the national army, there is an agreement about demobilization of the present or existing armed forces in the country and details of it. Also we have ... we are fully engaged with our partners, which have promised support in that area.

National formation of national police forces in the same phase. The revival of the judiciary is one thing which we are working on. People have been appointed for the National Judiciary Council and that council ... or that commission will start working. Demobilization, which is another aspect of security in Afghanistan, about the program of it there is an agreement and some activities have started. But I will refer to demobilization efforts later on. Anti-narcotics campaign, this is another aspect of security. Because what had happened in Afghanistan, narcotic mafia had joined hands with terrorist groups. So the campaign against terror had disturbed the activities of narco-mafia in our country, in our region. But it has not led to the end to the whole situation. From the other side we have a situation where farmers, ordinary farmers, they cultivate opium as their means of likelihood. The main money goes to the mafia. This situation, this is a very serous situation and a very serious campaign.

Recently there was a conference in Kabul which, with the help of the international organizations, UNDCCP, other organizations, and there we agreed upon a comprehensive program of combating drug cultivation processing, trafficking. But like the campaign against terror there should be a collective effort by the Afghans as well as the international community as a whole, to address this issue substantially and fundamentally.

Then, there's security. Reconstruction in humanitarian situation. Another issue which I have to mention in the security field, this is the mines, anti-personnel landmines. That is also serious. There are talks about ten million landmines in Afghanistan. So it is a problem that we face daily, day by day case. And like every other challenge, it is formidable, it is overwhelming, but we have to take challenges, and we have taken bigger challenges than that.

Humanitarian situation in some parts of the country is still in humanitarian phase ... or crisis, humanitarian crisis phase. While reconstruction activities have started, the people of Afghanistan, the people themselves they started before any other organization or any other country which is supportive of our efforts. When you go to Kabul you see hundreds of houses being rebuilt, people who had left Afghanistan in the past and now they have return back and they want to build their houses. They have started businesses. Trade is booming in the country. So these are the positive developments. 1.6 million refugees have returned back to Afghanistan in the past few months, in the past ten months. Over 1.2 million internally displaced people have returned back to their own places, people which were forced out of their areas.

Three million school children have gone to school this year. Our estimate at the beginning was two million. Later on, when we had time to see things as it was, now we have three million children, boys and girls have returned back to school. Loya jirga was held a few months ago, which was the process of selection or election of the representatives was supervised, it was democratic, it was not ... the government had not interfered in it. In itself, the holding of a loya jirga and the meeting itself was a democratic one. It was broadcast live throughout the country and worldwide. And the decisions made there are of course respected by the transitional Islamic State of Afghanistan which was the result of the decision by the loya jirga.

The law for private investment has been passed, which is a liberal one, which is one which provides guarantee in assurances for the business, foreign joint ventures, as well as Afghan business. Investors have just started going to Afghanistan and taking part. Afghan currency was introduced just a few days ago, which is I think another issue which is ... the people of Afghanistan value it a lot, because different currencies were introduced in different parts of the country and some groups were printing currency relentlessly, without any calculation. So now we have a national currency. It has worked well so far. The national Security Council was established, which overseas issues of the ... relevant issues as well as an anti-narcotic campaign in the reformatted, in the intelligence section.

Afghanistan has been able to improve its relations with its neighboring countries, regardless of their…with the hope looking towards the future, for a better future for our neighboring countries as well as Afghanistan. In that field we have taken serious steps, important steps and historical steps. We hope that the realization of the fact that our neighboring countries will only benefit from a stable Afghanistan, their interest is in stability in Afghanistan, in a country which has a central government, a government which has got support from the people. If our neighboring countries see their interest in a stable Afghanistan in public government in Afghanistan, I think they will benefit a lot from it.

In the past they had their own designs for Afghanistan, which didn't work, which has led to the disasters for our people, for our region, and worldwide. This is time I think that ... to see the situation in the context of the new circumstances. Our relations with all our neighboring countries are good. We appreciate the public policy of our neighboring countries, Iran, Pakistan and the others, which is the support for the central government in Afghanistan. We hope that all neighboring countries of Afghanistan make sure that this policy is implemented in all ... at all levels. Nobody is allowed to violate the public policy of those countries, which is in their interest as well as in our common interest. And I think it is in our interest to start questions and answers.

JVK: Well, thank you. The procedure we'll use for the Q&A is that I will call on you, stand up, say your name and affiliation and wait for the mike to get to you. I'm going to start off asking the minister two questions. The first one is if the US launches an attack on Iraq, how will that affect the security and stability in Afghanistan?

AA: We hope that there are ... or Saddam Hussein has realized this time he has to act and he has to act quickly and he will not be given the chance to play the same games as he has played in the past few years. That is a preferable situation.

Another preferable situation would be that in case of an action against Iraq, to have the Security Council of the United Nations on board. But if these things didn't work as we wish, if action is needed on Iraq, the realization of the factor that the campaign against terror in Afghanistan is far from being over, it is important. I think the situation in Afghanistan is simply like this.

We cannot afford to fail in Afghanistan. When I say "we," I mean us as the Afghans as well as our partners, the United States as the lead nation. We cannot afford ... that has to be realized. Afghanistan has to be made a success model, to show that if nations are given the right choices, the opportunities, they are making the right choices. And it is for the first time that there is such an opportunity in Afghanistan. As I mentioned at the beginning that Afghanistan has the chance to become a point of stability rather than being a point of instability.

A shift of focus from Afghanistan to another situation will harm the situation. I hope that this will not happen. The administration, President Bush himself, Congress and the meetings which I had a few weeks ago, they all assured us that the focus on Afghanistan will continue. But if it's needed to take action on Iraq it's an issue which has to be dealt with.

JVK: The second question I have is what is the affect on Afghanistan of the recent elections in Pakistan? And specifically is that a harbinger of the spread of extreme fundamentalism in your country?

AA: I hope that somebody in Pakistan will not consider it as a sort of interference in their internal affairs. But I should say some of the brands, some of the names, some of the titles, some of the groups, which have ... now which have got votes and being elected, especially in the northwest frontiers, they are the people like the Taliban. They are Taliban. They are the founders of the Taliban. Ideologically, mentally their agenda is like that.

That's the fact. I think rather than denying the fact, we wish success for President Musharraf to take care of a new situation, which I consider it a serious one. We don't want to see a situation that those forces like Taliban gain more power, through whatever means, whatever means they are. In our neighboring country, Pakistan, it will harm the situation in Pakistan. And we will suffer as a result of it. But we are in daily stages. We have to wait and see. But it is a cause of concern. It's a great cause of concern.

There are people which publicly support Osama and Al Qaeda, now, after being elected. I think it is justifiable for us to be concerned about.

JVK: I agree. Yes? Right here.

Judith Kipper: Mr. Minister, it's so wonderful to have you here. Judith Kipper, Council on Foreign Relations. Also, two questions, if I may. First, to what extent would more peacekeepers be helpful in this critical period? And secondly, we saw the other day that Dr. Zawahri(?) is apparently still alive and well. We've seen a number of incidents around the globe that are apparently Al Qaeda related. From your vantage point and knowing as much as you do, how would you evaluate Al Qaeda at this particular point?

AA: The expansion of ISAF role, or international peacekeeping force in different parts of the country that will help stability and security throughout the country. The presence of ISAF in Kabul in itself it is a major element in providing security and stability in the country, throughout the country, because of its impact, psychological or whatever it is.

And expansion of ISAF role in different parts of the country will be beneficial for security and further stability in the country. But whether it is doable or not, that's a different question. About Al Qaeda and their status, once again I hope that today's situation in Pakistan and the election of those people ... or those people ... their role, the role of the people which were supports of the Taliban in Pakistan will not provide a new opportunity for Al Qaeda in our region. Because Al Qaeda leaders, Taliban leaders, are hidden either in Afghanistan, or not so hidden: they are in Pakistan. We hope that the recent developments will not provide a new opportunity for Al Qaeda.

But worldwide, or in Afghanistan as well, they have changed their tactics. They want to ... with some terrorist actions here and there, they want to show that they are there and address their audiences in this way. This is their tactic of the September ... after they were defeated.

Ted Curran: Ted Curran. Your Excellency ...

AA: Here, take the mike.

Ted Curran: Ted Curran. I had the privilege of serving in Afghanistan in the '70s. In those days, both the Russians and the Chinese had very intense interest in Afghanistan. Since those days, the Russians had a very unhappy role in Afghanistan. I wonder now if you'd be willing to comment briefly on how you see the Russians and the Chinese and the role they might play in present and future of the country?

AA: Of course, when the Soviets were defeated in Afghanistan they were most unhappy, as one could imagine. And the decision for withdrawal from Afghanistan, it was a difficult decision for the leaders here. But they did it out of the circumstances there in Afghanistan in the worldwide situation.

Then Russian infiltration. Their role was changed and they have defined their policies based on the new circumstances, post-cold war situation. In today's situation, I think Russian Federation has also benefited to a large extent from what has happened in Afghanistan. Terrorism emanated from Afghanistan had threatened Russia's stability, security and sovereignty. And as I mentioned, the networks of terrorism, extremism and drug mafia, they were working hand in hand in the whole region. The fact that they are not in power in Afghanistan, it is to the interest of Russia, and so is the situation with China.

With both countries we have good relations. What is important, it is also the realization of the fact that Afghanistan, independent Afghanistan's right of self-determination, Afghanistan's sovereignty should be respect by all countries, especially our neighboring countries and countries in the through. In the coming future, we hope that we will be able to hold a meeting of all neighboring countries. We have six neighboring countries. As a result of the disintegration of the Soviet Union we have more neighbors now. Which sometimes it is an advantage.

We are hoping to have a conference in Kabul. We have already talked to our neighboring countries, and some of them, they welcome that initiative. And to have a Kabul declaration which will be positive as far as the engagement in reconstruction of Afghanistan and the other issues of concern, as well as having an element of non-interference with each other.

JVK: Ken.

Ken Bacon: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ken Bacon of Refugees International. In your discussion of security you didn't mention warlords. I wondered if you could talk a little bit about whether the national army and police force will be able to, and court system, will be able to operate throughout the country, uniformly, under the same set of laws, or do you anticipate that warlords will continue to be a problem for the central government?

AA: Thank you. If you are talking about a change overnight, I will say perhaps not. But the process of change has started. It has started with the Bonn agreement, the formation of the interim government, later on loya jirga. And the loya jirga, which the people, which you call them warlords, some are freely warlords, or sometimes we call them regional leaders or factional leaders, whatever ... (Laughter), they participated in the meeting, those which were elected or selected. But an ordinary man with no name in Afghanistan previously, which was also selected, and they found that they have equal rights. That's I think a big change.

I think one big result of the loya jirga, or one conclusion which most of the delegates had reached was, that the rules of the game in Afghanistan have changed. That pace will not be stopped or reversed.

Then, talking about different regions and different authorities having control over the area, it has a process which has started, it will continue. It involves lots of factors: domestic, our ability to deliver on the promises which we have made for the people of Afghanistan, as the government of Afghanistan, so the people will rely on us rather than local warlords, the start of developmental activities and reconstruction efforts in different parts of the country in a balanced manner, the attitude of our neighboring countries, if they maintain their public policy as it is and make sure that it is implemented, as I mentioned, no regional leader receives support from the outside, from our neighboring countries. That's extremely important. That's crucial. The international assistance, it is channeled in a way that it enhances the rule of the grassroot population, helps integration of the government in different parts of the country. All these are elements of the change and the process of change which has started.

Talking about the formation of the national army, the representatives of all regional leaders were present in the meetings on the formation of the national army, and they gave approval to the plan which was worked out by the central government with our partners, which are supporters of our efforts in the creation of a national army and national police force.

There are people which we have to consider them as people which are part of the problem. We have to deal with them accordingly. There are people who have realized their role and have realized that they cannot change the ... they cannot turn back to the old days. If they want to act positively, we have to encourage them and make them a part of the positive change. And I am optimistic about the situation with the warlords.

JVK: Thank you. Over here.

Spurgeon Keeney: Spurgeon Keeney, National Academy of Sciences. The previous question was the one I put as my priority question. So let me take the opportunity to ask another question. How effective do you see the US and international support for the economic reconstruction to Afghanistan? We hear a great deal of talk and one has the impression that there's very little action. What would you put as an objective and reasonable interpretation as to how effective the follow up has been to helping Afghanistan get back on track?

AA: Yes. In this regard I have to give you a little bit explanation of the situation in the background. In Tokyo conference, the pledges which were made for the reconstruction of Afghanistan it was $4.5 billion. Some countries have pledged for two and a half years. Some their pledges were for four years, meant for four years.

First of all, all of us know now -- we didn't know then perhaps -- we know today that the pledges made were not enough. Were not enough at all. That is the first issue. Secondly, the composition of the pledges were not defined in Bonn conference ... Bonn ... in Tokyo conference. Tokyo was meant to be reconstruction assistance conference for Afghanistan. But now we see that most parts of the money which was pledged for this year has gone to the humanitarian situation in Afghanistan. Humanitarian problems were there before all these developments and the world was supportive of humanitarian efforts in Afghanistan. So this is the second issue.

The third issue is that some of the countries which had made pledges then they had not defined it clearly, later on they came in and said that 50 percent was credit, not grant. The fourth issue is that different countries have acted with different pace. Not because I am here in Washington that I am saying that, but the United States has been the best among all donor countries. Not only the United States have committed more money than they had already ... they had pledged in Tokyo, but also encouraging the other countries to do so and to speed up their efforts.

We hope that the bill which is now in Congress and hopefully which includes the enterprise…as well will be passed soon, and it's important. The recent pledges for the reconstruction of ... construction of roads in Afghanistan was extremely important. In a joint announcement, the United States, Saudi Arabia and Japan committed sums of money for construction of roads, which is important. So reconstruction efforts in Afghanistan, real reconstruction efforts in Afghanistan has not started yet.

A single day labor intensive project is not in place there. So that's the status of the situation. We hope that the situation will change.

JVK: We have a question over here.

Eric Pelofsky: My name is Eric Pelofsky from the Department of State. Two quick questions, I don't know if they're quick answers. But I was wondering if you would characterize the degree to which you think the task of rooting out Al Qaeda from Afghanistan has been accomplished, halfway done, three-fourths? And then the second question is whether you ... when you look at the next six months down the road what keeps you up at night, what are you most concerned about as going unaddressed? As you gave us a very long list of concerns, what is the one that you think that's out there that hasn't been really faced wholly?

AA: (Laughs) Quick answers ... what you want, yeah? In regards to your first question, one cannot define it that way but I could say that the conventional war against terrorism in Afghanistan is already over. Conventional type of war. But time consuming and painstaking job is already ahead of us. But this task is multidimensional, it is not just security and military. Reconstruction efforts are extremely important.

If the people are giving as I mentioned better chances, better opportunities, the remnants of Taliban and Al Qaeda could be rooted out. The policies of our neighboring countries are extremely important. And engagement ... important. An engagement with our neighboring countries, engagement by us as well as by the international community, is important in order to make sure that this task will be accomplished fully. But it is a global endeavor. Root causes of the problem also have to be addressed at the same time.

So in regards to the second question, I'm sort of jetlagged -- I forgot it. (Laughs)

JVK: (Inaudible) awake (Inaudible) ... was important.

AA: I know that. (Laughs) Whatever issue you touch, if one gets deep into it, it is a challenge, which is a challenge of lifetime, for a nation. Whatever issue. Let's take education. It's good news when three million students return back to school. But let's see what's happening in the schools, how many schools do we have, what is the status of the teachers? Do we have books? For example, (Inaudible) ... made preparations for one and a half million students and books were published, with support of the United States and Japan and some other countries and international organizations. Now we have three million.

So if you go deeper and deeper and deeper you will find out ... you will end up with the situation that you are faced with the formidable challenge in what to do about it. But I think it's the right thing to keep ... to have a plan, to have your goals defined, and to have a plan and a strategy and keep going.

JVK: There is a question over here. Yes?

JS: Jeremy Stone with Catalytic Diplomacy. Foreign Minister, are there projects that you can recommend to us that would involve Afghanistan, Iran and the United States?

AA: (Laughter) Yes. First of all, as an Afghan and as an Afghan citizen and secondly as the Foreign Minister of Afghanistan, the ideal situation for the Afghans would be that there is ... that the relations between the United States and Iran, Islamic Republic of Iran, improves. That will be the ideal situation. We will benefit a lot from it. The whole region will benefit a lot from it. That's one issue.

But as far as the projects ... for example in the area of drug war against drug trafficking and drug cultivation, Iran has been very active. Very active. This is an area in which we work with them, as well as the international organizations, and this could be a joint project. I will go farther deep in the gist of the question, because I might look like talking for two countries, two other countries, rather than on behalf of myself, but Iran's role in the Bonn agreement, in the situation which led to the interim government and transition of the Islamic State of Afghanistan, the loya jirga, was very positive and very constructive.

If I may put it briefly, Afghanistan is the only case that there are lots of common views between the United States and Iran -- this is one. Afghanistan is the only issue which Iran and the United States have ... their representatives have sat round a table and discussed. This is perhaps the only issue. So this is an opportunity I think. And we hope that the situation will change to everybody's interest.

JO: Mr. Minister, my name is John O'Leary. I used to work at the State Department. If tomorrow somebody from the State Department in Afghanistan came to you and said, Mr. Minister, assuming tomorrow in the absence of international support the United States unilaterally attacked Iraq, what is your best case scenario and your worst case scenario as to the consequences of such an attack on your neighbors in Pakistan and Iran, and how that might affect your ability to do what you are doing now, that is so important in Afghanistan? What would you say to such a question?

AA: ... (Laughs)….that I answer. (Laughter) If the person was coming tomorrow (Laughs). But ... first of all, this issue, this issue of Iraq, every effort has to be made to make it, the issue as it is ... the issue is not against the people of Iraq, the issue is not against the Muslims, the issue is not against the Arabs. But look at the perception in different parts, and the efforts against this, this is important. This is an area which the United States has to focus.

The support from the international community is essential, of course. I have no doubt in my mind that the terrorist elements, the extremist elements in our region, will make this issue a case against us as well in Afghanistan. Two things will happen. They will make this case against us, and they will make provocations against us, and secondly, they would like to further destabilize Afghanistan to provoke and to initiate terrorist actions, more terrorist actions in Afghanistan to destabilize the situation in Afghanistan, to show that Afghanistan is a failure and there can be no success story for the United States. These are the two things which I am 100 percent sure that will happen.

JVK: Yes, question over here?

LG: Thank you. I am Lincoln Gordon from the Brookings Institution. One reads in the press occasionally, Minister, rather alarming reports about the recrudescence of opium poppies as a major agriculture crop. I wonder whether you would comment on that general issue.

AA: Yes, there are two issues. One is the problem and the challenge of opium cultivation in Afghanistan and our campaign against it. The second issue is the perception outside the country. Afghanistan economy was agriculturally based in peace time. And Afghanistan was self sufficient as far as the food products were concerned. And still we rely on our domestic products in that field, mainly on that. So opium cultivation is a freak of what is happening in the field of agriculture. But it is still a major cause of concern, from the security and the stability point of view as well as all other aspects.

In the first phase when opium was already cultivated, the government then, some government then, with the help of the international community implemented the program of opium eradication. So the cultivated opium was eradicated. The amount of opium which was eradicated in that campaign, which was for that phase, was something like worth hundreds of millions of dollars in street value. While the amount of money which was spent was a few million dollars for the compensation for the farmers, one- time compensation, and so on and so forth. That was for that phase.

But now we have to work out a comprehensive program to address this issue on every level. When we are talking about the farmers, the farmers make more money by cultivating opium than any other crops. This happens in a country which is ruined as a result of 23 years of war and lawlessness and so on and so forth. Then there are local authorities which may benefit from it. Then they are linked to drug mafia in the country and in the region. So as I mentioned at the beginning, it was a collective effort.

While Afghanistan is being asked and expected to deliver on all fields, if one looks at the record of the international community in dealing with these problems and addressing these problems, it is ... the record is poor unfortunately. But we have to act quickly. The opium cultivation is banned by the government and President Karzai issued a decree. That issuing a decree affected the situation like 30 percent, it had 30 percent impact on the situation. But you cannot have a situation where the people have no other choices but to do this. And then you will be able to change it by issuing decrees and laws. So this is a multidimensional problem which has to be dealt with. We emphasize on the support by the international community, which is crucial.

JVK: Certainly they understand that, how big that problem is in Columbia say not made much progress on it. In the back there please.

KW: Mr. Minister, thank you for being here and for all your work. My name is Kathy Ward. I'm with the International Crisis Group. On ISAF expansion, if it isn't possible, if it doesn't happen, what do you see as other alternatives to addressing the underlying issues?

AA: One alternative could be deployment of the coalition forces, not in large numbers, the coalition forces which are already in Afghanistan and the small numbers perhaps in different regions. That might help. Then focus on the creation of national security institutions. Which as every other thing it takes time. But still more focus will help on that situation, and reconstruction effort. The answer to the security and the stability in Afghanistan from now on is not, as I mentioned, just one aspect of it, which is security and military. But it is the reconstruction efforts, which is equally important and perhaps more important than the other aspects.

JVK: Right here.

TQ: Tony Quainton of the National Policy Association. Mr. Minister, you represent the transitional Islamic State. Could you say a little bit about transition, and perhaps even most important how you understand the concept of an Islamic state in the modern world in which we live?

AA: The first administration was called interim. It was for six months. These terms are terms and provisions in the Bonn agreement. Today's government is a transitional State of Afghanistan -- today's name of our state. Transition because it was before general elections. The loya jirga which led to the formation of the transitional government, it is a democratic process but it is not our ultimate desire for ... in a political process. Our ultimate goal is general elections, free general elections. So it is because of that that it is called transitional.

Since it is transitional there are no other concerns, if I could be ... (Laughs) But when a country is called Islamic State of Afghanistan, for example, in our case it is ... (Pause) ... how it came out. It was the proposal of the loya jirga delegates, the representatives in loya jirga, and loya jirga unanimously voted for that.

How it affects the practice as well as the government is concerned, that's a different issue. Afghanistan has been a Muslim country and the majority of our people are Muslims. This term relates to that factor more than any other factor. We are working on our new constitution. To this stage, our basis of conduct is our constitution from 1964, which the issue of religion in a state is solved in it in a very delicate manner. This is our basis of conduct as far as now. But the constitution commission, the members have been named, a committee and then there will be a commission. They will draft a constitution, our new constitution, and that constitution will be passed by the future loya jirga. The future loya jirga will decide on it, before we are having our general elections. And those issues will be addressed.

JVK: One last question.

BP: Bridget Pierce, Women’s Foreign Policy Group. I was just wondering if you could comment on the role that women are playing in the reconstruction, policy making, the meetings, et cetera, and their general integration back into society.

AA: The role of women in our society ... some 12 months ago or 13 months ago, something like 12 million women were imprisoned. They were like in a jail in Afghanistan. They were deprived from every single human (Inaudible) by the ruling authorities in most parts of the country. This was the situation.

All the decrees which restricted women's role in society and imposed upon our people by the Taliban were abolished after the interim government. And now women are playing their role in different levels. I refer to the situation with education where three million schools of youngsters returned back to school, half of which are girls. In the cabinet, women are playing important roles and they are (Inaudible) use(?) as well in other fields. There are no restrictions. There are no discriminations against.

But having all that said, one also has to think that we are talking about a situation where afghans, men and women, perhaps alike, have gone through different horrors for so many years, the five, six years under Taliban and before that during the war, the pace of change might seem slow from the outside, but it is not. The trauma, if one focuses for a few seconds on the trauma which situations, circumstances like Afghanistan could create and can create for human beings, men and women, and to get rid of it, how long it will take and under what circumstances, this is the context of the situation. But I am sure that the situation ... the pace of change which has started will strengthen and further expand, and our women will have ... will be able to enjoy their full rights as normal human beings and be a part of the reconstruction efforts, and they are.

When Afghanistan was hit by national disasters as well, we had an earthquake a few months ago, the first person from the government, from the central government which reached to that area was our Minister of Health, which is a woman, Dr. Silosity(?). She was the first person to reach that point.

So change has started. But once again, once again, the issues which I referred to at the beginning in my opening remarks are interactive. If the economic situation of the people doesn't change, if the infrastructure is not met, if we are talking about education, talking about different areas, if these things, if there are no improvements in those areas, how can one imagine that the situation, those (Inaudible).

JVK: Minister Abdullah, I want to say on behalf of everyone that you've given us a much broader appreciation of the Herculean task that faces you in your eviscerated country. And I want to thank you very much for sharing it with us. (Applause)

AA: Thank you. Thank you.