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| Moderator: | George Stephanopoulos, Visiting Professor, School of International and Public Affairs, Columbia University |
|---|
May 3, 2003
Foreign Affairs
Columbia, SC
May 3, 2003
This transcript was provided courtesy of ABC News, May 2003
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS
Good evening and welcome to Drayton Hall, where the nine Democraticcandidates for President are meeting tonight in their first debate. Theman they want to replace is enormously popular. A new ABC News "WashingtonPost" poll finds that 71 percent of Americans approve of the way PresidentBush is running the country, despite the fact that nearly half say they areworse off financially than when he took office. A President with this kindof support will be tough to beat. Here are the people who think they cando it, Congressman Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, Congressman Richard Gephardt ofMissouri, the Reverend Al Sharpton of New York, Senator Joseph Lieberman ofConnecticut, former Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun of Illinois, formerGovernor Howard Dean of Vermont, Senator John Edwards of North Carolina,Senator Bob Graham of Florida and Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts.
The debate is divided into four parts. First, 45 minutes ofopen discussion that I'll direct. Second, each candidate will ask one ofthe others a single question. In the third round, I'll question eachcandidate, followed by closing statements. Now, we have only 90 minutesfor all nine candidates. So I've asked each of them to keep their answersshort, and everyone here in the audience to hold their applause. I knowit's not going to be easy, but we'll give it our best shot. And SenatorKerry, the first question goes to you. On March 19th, President Bushordered General Tommy Franks to execute the invasion of Iraq. Was that theright decision at the right time?
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacya greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarmSaddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him,and I support the fact that we did disarm him.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Now Governor Dean, you've criticized Senator Kerry on the campaigntrail, saying he's trying to have it both ways, on the issue of Iraq. Wasthat answer clear enough for you?
HOWARD DEAN
Let me be very clear about what I believe. I'm delighted to see SaddamHussein gone. I appreciate the fact that we have a strong military in thiscountry, and I'd keep a strong military in this country, but I think thiswas the wrong war at the wrong time because we have set a new policy ofpreventive war in this country, and I think that was the wrong thing to dobecause sooner or later, we're going to see another country copy the UnitedStates, and sooner or later we're going to have to deal with the fact thatthere may well be a Shi'a fundamentalist regime set up in Iraq, which willbe a greater danger to the United States than Iraq is.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
But do you believe Senator Kerry is still trying to have it both ways?
HOWARD DEAN
That's not up to me to judge that. That's up to the voters to judge thatand I'm sure they will.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Senator Lieberman, something else that Governor Dean said just todayto a voter. He said that Saddam was really not much of a threat to theUnited States and had never been one. So it may be that by getting rid ofSaddam, we've actually made things more dangerous for America. Do youagree with that?
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
Oh, I absolutely disagree. Saddam Hussein was a threat to the UnitedStates and most particularly to his neighbors. Remember, this was a manwho said he wanted to rule the Arab world and he invaded two of hisneighbors in pursuit of that goal, using chemical and bio, chemical weaponsagainst them. We have evidence also over the last several years that hewas cooperating with terrorists and supporting them. We did the rightthing, and we gave him 12 years, and tried everything short of war to gethim to keep the promises he made to disarm at the end of the Gulf War. Wedid the right thing in, in fighting this fight and the American people willbe safer as a result of it, and incidentally no Democrat will be electedPresident in 2004 who is not strong on defense, and this war was a test ofthat strength.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
So, Reverend Sharpton, who is right, Senator Lieberman or GovernorDean?
REVEREND AL SHARPTON
Well, I'm going to be right. I think that the real issue is the securityof Americans and if we can secure Americans, I think that's the priority.I'm convinced that we could have disarmed Hussein by working with theUnited Nations and going through the channels that we were embarked upon.We are still here now with no weapons of mass destruction having beenrevealed by this Administration, even though they said they knew where theywere. I think we have started a precedent that can come back to haunt us.I think we have picked up a bill that we don't know how much it's going tocost to occupy Iraq. We're talking about millions of dollars to occupyIraq, when we don't have the money for the 50 states we already occupy. Ithink it was the wrong thing to do at the wrong time for the wrong reason.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Congressman Gephardt, can this war be called a success if thoseweapons of mass destruction aren't found?
REPRESENTATIVE RICHARD GEPHARDT
I think we're going to find weapons of mass destruction. I think this wasabout keeping our people safe. I told the President early on in thismatter when we were meeting with him every week with the other threeleaders in the Congress, that we had to try to reach bipartisan agreement,we had to try to put politics aside on these issues and do the right thingto keep our people safe. I urged him to go to the UN, I helped write theresolution language that said that he should go to the UN. I'm glad hewent there. I wish he would have gotten the UN finally with us, butgetting rid of these weapons of mass destruction, and we're going to findthem, they may have gotten rid of, tried to get rid of them the week beforewe went in. But I'm convinced, and I think everybody is convinced, thatthese weapons were there and they could have found their way into the handsof terrorists and found their way into the United States, and that's whatwe had to stop.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Senator Kerry, let me come back to you for a second, because earlierthis week your campaign questioned whether or not Governor Dean is fit tobe commander in chief. Do you think he's fit?
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
I think Governor Dean, excuse me, made a statement which I found quiteextraordinary and I still do. He said that, he said America has to preparefor the day when we will not be the strongest military in the world. Imean, that's his statement. I didn't make it up. He said it. I disagree.I believe that a President of the United States has a solemn responsibility. . .
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
But does that mean he's not fit to serve?
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
I believe anybody who thinks that they have to prepare for the day thatwe're not the strongest is preparing for a day when we have seriousproblems. And I think the world has proven and we have proven that thereis a rationale for our containing the most, the most powerful military onthe face of the planet, hopefully, George, this is important, to be usedmore effectively to pursue the ideals of America in a more effective waythrough our diplomacy, so we never have to use it. And if we continue todo what President Kennedy and President Clinton and others did, which ispursue proliferation and reduce the threat of weapons, we can create aworld in which the threat of war begins to be minimized.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Okay. Well, let me get Governor Dean's response.
HOWARD DEAN
This is what Senator Kerry said in January in his Georgetown address. "Ina world growing more, not less interdependent, unilateralism is a formulafor isolation and shrinking influence." That is what I meant. I stick bythat. No commander in chief would ever, and I'm no exception, willinglyallow our military influence to shrink. Unilateralism is a mistake.That's what I said for it. I think the Senator made a mistake incriticizing me.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Earlier, I'll have you in a second. Hold on one second.
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
Can I, can I counter that?
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Let me, let me, let me give a follow-up here for a second, becauseearlier in the campaign this week, you questioned the Senator Kerry'scourage. Are you prepared to make that charge to his face?
HOWARD DEAN
What I said at that time, and I am, everyone respects Senator Kerry'sextraordinarily heroic Vietnam record, and I do as well. However, what Iwould have preferred, this is 30 years later, I would have preferred ifSenator Kerry had some concerns about my fitness to serve that he speak tome directly about that rather than through his spokesman.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Okay, let me change subjects.
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
Can I . . .
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
I'm going to come back to you in a second, Senator Kerry. But let me(INAUDIBLE).
REPRESENTATIVE DENNIS KUCINICH
I don't think there's any, I don't think there's any question about whetherthe United States is going to have the strongest military. We alreadyspend more than almost the rest of the world combined for the military.The question really facing the American people is going to be, can wefollow the military budget that's going from 400 billion to even 500billion by 2013, tax cuts for the wealthy, and have health care for all andjobs for all and education for all and retirement security for all? Thebottom line is, and the real issue here, gentlemen and Senator Braun, andthat is that somebody here has to say it's time to cut the waste, the fat,the bloat out of the military. I'm the only candidate who is ready to saythat tonight that there's, that there's been misspending in the Pentagon.That there is a lot of money wasted. They can't reconcile a trilliondollars in accounts. And all this goes on and no one's addressing it. AndI'm saying that until you address that issue, you can talk about being thestrongest, but it's not getting to the point. The point is not wasting thetaxpayers' dollars and making sure the American people are going to havetheir needs met instead of all the money going for the military.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
We're gonna get to all of these issues tonight. Senator Kerry?
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
Well, let me come back, what, what, what Governor Dean said in SanFrancisco, not to my face, was that I didn't have the courage to stand upfor gays in America. Now, I led the fight in 1985, I was the originalauthor of the 1985 civil rights act. I testified before the armed servicescommittee to permit gays to serve in the military, as they have with me andin every war in this country. I have been a sponsor of the hate crimeslegislation, a sponsor of the, more employment discrimination legislation,and I am for civil unions. My position, in fact, is stronger than GovernorDean's. In addition to that, when he questions my courage, I really thinkthat anybody who has measured the tests that I think I have performed overthe last years in any number of, of, of fights in the United States Congress as well as my service in Vietnam.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Okay.
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
That I don't need any lectures in courage from Howard Dean.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
I want to get, there's everybody seeking it, I know everyone wants toget attention here. But I first want to give Governor Dean a chance torespond, then I'm going to go right down the row. (INAUDIBLE).
HOWARD DEAN
To set the record straight, the reporter in "The San Francisco Chronicle"put a correction in the following day. I did not question Senator Kerry'srecords on gay rights. He has a very good one.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
And you're not going to do it now?
HOWARD DEAN
No, I have no reason to. He has a good record on gay rights.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Okay. Senator Graham?
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
Well, first, thank you very much, George, for giving us all the opportunityto be here. I, I might say that all the people around this table are goodpeople. They've got good values and an intelligent agenda for dealing withAmerica's problems. We're not fighting each other. We're trying to selectone of us to be the opponent of George Bush. And so the questions in myjudgment should particularly focus on his judgment. And in that regard,the reason I voted against authorizing the President to use force againstIraq was I thought it was too weak, because it did not contain a parallelauthorization for the President to use force against Hezbollah, which haskilled almost 300 Americans in the Middle East. It did not authorize us touse force against Islamic Jihad or Hamas, two other violent terroristgroups who have pledged that they want to kill Americans. And they havedemonstrated on September 11th the ability to kill Americans. I thinkthose ought to be our first priorities.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Senator Edwards, do you think that the President should have thatauthority?
SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS
Well, can I say something first about, about . . .
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Sure.
SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS
. . . the debate that has gone on between the Governor and Senator Kerry.First of all, I want to echo what Senator Graham said. I think it's veryimportant for us to recognize, whatever personal differences exist,Governor Dean or Senator Kerry, either one, would be a better Presidentthan the one we have. And they have the right views on what needs to bedone in America. But there is an important test that we haven't talkedabout that the President still faces, which is what will he do in the post-Saddam Iraq? Will he in fact engage the international community in thereconstruction effort? Will he involve the United Nations? Will heinvolve the European Union? Will he involve NATO? Because there is anextraordinary opportunity. And this is a test for this President. And heshould be held to this test. We have an opportunity here to rehabilitaterelationships that have been severely damaged, and we have a chance to showthe world that we were in fact in Iraq for the right reasons, that we werethere for the purpose of liberating the Iraqi people, that this was notabout the expansion of American power, that this was not about oil. ThePresident has that test going forward and we ought to lay this marker downand we ought to hold him to that.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Okay, now I want to get in Ambassador Moseley Braun, SenatorLieberman, Reverend Sharpton, quick comments on this subject, then we'regoing to switch.
CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN
All right. Well, thank you very much. I think the first thing is we oughtto talk about the cost of this war and how we can rebuild America. If wecan have job fairs in Iraq, we ought to be able to have job fairs in SouthCarolina. The unemployment rate is up at six percent under this President,the budget deficits have exploded. They have ruined this economy. We arenot creating new jobs or new wealth in this country. There's a health carecrisis. We have all these issues and what we, what we saw as a country wasan unelected President under a mandate that I believe shouldn't have beengiven by the Congress because I, I think the Constitution, I know theConstitution in Article I says very clearly that it's Congress'responsibility to declare war. But under that authority, went in, and nowspent in excess of $200 billion the last time we looked, and the Americanpeople are hurting. So I think the question in this race is whether or notDemocrats can steer a course for America that is more in keeping withAmerica's interests and America's values. Building our relations withothers, working well with others in the world, building internationalinstitutions, trying to address those problems that cause war in the firstplace, and, undermine our security in the first place.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Senator Lieberman.
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
George, the, the squabble between Howard Dean and John Kerry may makeinteresting political theater, but it doesn't send the right message to thevoters about our party. Our party and the American people have animportant choice to make in the, in the next year and a half or two yearswhen we go up to November of 2004. And the fact is, they're not going tochoose anyone who sends a message that is other than strength on defenseand homeland security. The Bible says that "if the sound of the trumpet beuncertain, who will follow into battle?" And I'm afraid this debate sendsan uncertain message.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Is it the debate or is it Governor Dean's statement? What are you really saying?
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
I, I think that both have sent an uncertain message, one in principledopposition to the war, Governor Dean, the other, a kind, an ambivalenceabout the war which does not, will not give the people confidence about ourparty's willingness to make the tough decisions to protect their securityin a world after September 11th. I've worked in the Armed ServicesCommittee for ten years to make our military the best trained, bestequipped in the world. I'm the only candidate here on the stage tonightwho supported both the Gulf War and the war against Saddam Hussein, and Iwrote the bill on homeland security. So I think I'll make the Americanpeople feel safe as their next President.
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
I promised Reverend Sharpton you could get in, then Governor Dean.
REVEREND AL SHARPTON
Well, the same Bible, Senator Lieberman, said there's a time and place foreverything, a time for war and a time for peace. We should not just quotegoing to war. There's also a time to build. And I think the question is,how we have a President that believes in universal health care in Iraq, butdoesn't believe in it in South Carolina. How he believes in rebuildingBaghdad, but he doesn't believe in rebuilding Greenville. And I don'tthink that we are sending the wrong signal to say that Americans ought tobe concerned about that. I'm proposing a $250 billion infrastructureredevelopment plan. I think Americans have the right to know that we aregoing to rebuild America, and while we send these closed, bidded contractsgiven to his friends, I think it takes courage to raise those questions, aswell. I also, though, join Senator Graham and Senator Edwards in appealingthat we not be played against each other, particularly in our first night.Republicans are watching. Let's not start fighting and going at eachother, even though I know George is good at instigating it. We should nothave the bottom line tonight be that George Bush won because we were takingcheap shots at each other.
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
And just one quick word and then we're switching subjects. Governor Dean.
HOWARD DEAN
First of all, let me just say, Al, if we weren't fighting with each otheryou wouldn't be able to be as entertaining as you are, and I wouldn'teither. So this is, this is partly about entertainment. There arelegitimate differences. I don't want anybody to mistake my opposition tothis war, because of its preventive nature, for lack of toughness. I thinkthe commander in chief has to be tough. I think this President is notexecuting the war on homeland security the way he should be, 98 percent ofthe containers that come into this country are uninspected. The Presidentpromised billions of dollars to states and local government, which have notbeen delivered. We can be a lot tougher than this President is being onhomeland security and we will be.
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
And we have a lot of other issues to deal with tonight. I am going toswitch right now. And one of the biggest ones is health care. Everyone isconcerned about the rising cost of health care and health insurance. Acouple of weeks ago, Congressman Gephardt put out a plan that he says isgoing to cover 97 percent of the American people. He covers everyone bydoubling the tax deductions to employers, requiring them to give healthinsurance, and says he's going to pay for it by repealing almost all of theBush tax cuts. Reverend Sharpton, you've praised it. Senator Graham, justlast week on my show, you said it was going a little too far, a little toofast. You wanted something more incremental. Senator Edwards, what do youthink?
SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS
First of all, I applaud Congressman Gephardt for talking about a reallyimportant issue that this President is not talking about. I differ withhim about how to do it. I think all of us are for universal health care.What, what I differ with him about is taking almost a trillion dollars outof the pocket of working families, making $30,000, $40,000 a year, givingit to the biggest corporations in America who are already providing healthinsurance, and not insuring another additional American. I think that'staking money that people desperately need, giving it to people, the verypeople that we've had trouble with. We have had an enormous problem withthe corporate culture in America. Working people have been severelydisadvantaged as a result of the greed in the corporate culture thatexists. To me, to me, this is what it feels like. It feels like saying,you're in good hands with Enron. We'll, we will trust you. We will trust corporate America to do what's right for its workers, tomake sure they're taken care of, even though they're already coveringpeople. Now I have a set of ideas that are different than CongressmanGephardt, things that I believe in, like making sure that all children arein fact covered, making sure that all Americans have more choices,providing tax credits to small businesses that are in fact providing healthcare to their employees. If I can say one last thing, George, and theother thing is, Congressman Gephardt, and I've heard very little discussionabout this, no one is talking about cost. What if we can't deal with thehealth care crisis in America unless we will have the backbone and courageto do what I have been doing my entire life, fighting against bigcorporations, pharmaceutical companies, big insurance companies, big HMOs.There's a culture, and while the President works for those people, there'sa culture in Washington that stands against taking them on. But we have totake them on.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Let me stop here. You just made a very, very tough charge againstCongressman Gephardt, you said taking money from working people. So youthink his plan is a tax increase on working people?
SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS
I think it takes money directly out of the pockets of working people.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
And gives it to corporations.
SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS
I know, I know it gives it to corporations.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Congressman Gephardt?
REPRESENTATIVE RICHARD GEPHARDT
Well, I couldn't disagree with John more. I respect his views, but he'swrong on my plan, and, and I think if he would read it and look at it, hewould, he may agree that it's a better plan than he said. First of all,let's talk about what we're trying to do. We've got to get everybody inthis country covered with good health insurance. This plan can pass and itwill do it. Let's look at two of the things he brought up. He talkedabout cost. I will save five percent to seven percent a year off of thepremiums that people are paying now for health care, because we'll finallytake care of this problem of uncompensated care, which has been a hugeproblem in this country. Secondly, he says I'm raising taxes on ordinary Americans. That's thefurthest thing from the truth. I am ensuring people are not going to losetheir health insurance. I've been all over this country. People say to meall the time, I'm worried I'm going to lose my health care, even though Ihave it. People also say to me, I don't think I can continue to afford thefamily coverage or even the individual coverage. I would solve thatproblem. Lastly, people get their health insurance from corporations. Myplan requires everybody, every company who gets the 50 percent credit topass it along to their employees and to offer their employees plans. Thisis not helping the corporations. This is helping corporations give peoplethe thing they most need, which is health insurance.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Congressman Kucinich, are you willing to raise taxes to covereveryone?
REPRESENTATIVE DENNIS KUCINICH
Well, I, I think what we can do, we can phase in a payroll tax of 6-point,or 7.7 percent on all employers and have that be a mainstay of our nationalhealth care plan. I think what needs to be said here is that we have toget the profit out of health care, and that means get the private insurancecompanies out of health care. And any plan that's offered to the Americanpeople that fails to do that is not going to deliver the best qualityuniversal health care. Now, I have a bill that I introduced, which is HR-676 with John Connors, which is Medicare for all, guaranteed single pairuniversal health care. Get profit out of health care. It's time to havehealth insurance for the American people, not the insurance companies.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Now, Senator Lieberman, we just heard, one second, please. SenatorLieberman, we just heard Congressman Kucinich is willing to raise taxes topay for health care. Congress Gephardt is willing to do the same thing.What's your reaction to that, and what's your plan?
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
I am not willing to raise taxes to, to pay for health insurance in a way,certainly not that Dick Gephardt has recommended. George, this campaignpresents our party, again, with a choice of about whether we want to gobackward to deal with our nation's problems, like the terrible gap inhealth insurance for 41 million Americans, or whether we want to go forwardwith new ideas. We're not going to solve these problems with the kind ofbig spending Democratic ideas of the past. And we can't afford them. Withall respect to Dick Gephardt, if his plan were implemented, it would takeas much money out of the Social Security and Medicare trust funds as theBush tax cut. And, and in, in that sense, it would create the same deficitthat the Bush tax cut does. It has no cost containment, as has been said. It does cancel the better parts of the 2001 tax cut, which gave taxbreaks to working Americans and middle-class Americans, reduced the maritaltax penalty and increased the child care tax credit. We are, we're notgoing to solve all of our problems with George Bush's big, irresponsibletax cut, and we're not going to solve them all with this kind of bigspending. It doesn't leave any money to invest in education, to invest infinding cures for disease, to invest in homeland security or internationalsecurity. I, I think a good place to start, and I think this will onlyhappen step by step, that Congress, with all respect, would not pass theGephardt plan ever, therefore, no single American will get insurance under,that, that, that doesn't have it now. We ought to start where Al Gore andI proposed in 2000, expand the children's health insurance program, whichwould have covered every child in America with health insurance by 2005,and let their parents buy into Medicaid at a cheaper rate than they can getin the private markets. Step by step is the way to do it.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
I want, I want to get to the others. But he said you're going to takemoney from Medicare and Social Security.
REPRESENTATIVE RICHARD GEPHARDT
Well, that's just not the case. My plan also stimulates the economy, and Iargue very strongly that the Bush tax plan has not stimulated the economy.This will allow companies to hire new people. It'll put money in people'spockets, because we're going to reduce the cost of their premiums forhealth care, potentially having all that 60 percent go across to everyemployee. Finally, you know, I think if we're going to win this election,we cannot be Bush-like. We can't come along and say, well, I'll keep halfthe Bush tax cut, or I'll keep three-quarters of the Bush tax cut. TheBush tax cuts have failed. They are not making this economy better. Theyare not helping people get jobs. They're not covering anybody with healthinsurance. We've got to give the people a choice. I want to give theAmerican people a choice. If you like George Bush's tax cuts, stick withhim. Vote for him. But if you want to finally solve this problem that'sbedeviled our people for a hundred years, let's get it done. Let's geteverybody in this country covered with good health insurance. My plan willdo it, and I'd like to convince my colleagues that this is the plan weought to go with.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Governor Dean, are you convinced? You called it "pie in the sky" lastweek.
HOWARD DEAN
Actually, I don't think it's quite as bad as John Edwards said. I waspretty shocked at some of that. It's not taking money out of workingpeople. Here's what we ought to do. I have two advantages here. First ofall, I'm a governor. And second of all, I'm a doctor. And third of all,we've actually done this, a lot of this in Vermont. In Vermont, everybodyunder 18 has health insurance. What I want to do is this, and it costsabout half, a little less than half of the Bush tax cut. First, everybodyunder 25 gets Medicaid if they want it. It worked well for us under 18 inour state. It's not expensive. Second, prescription benefits for everysenior. That makes Medicare into a pretty decent policy. Third, between25-65, as Dick wants to do, subsidize small businesses. Don't give the taxcredit to the big corporations. Subsidize individuals who need help buyinghealth insurance, and then help individuals who work for companies thatdon't do it. The cost is half of the Bush tax cut. It'll pass, becausemost of the interest groups that opposed the Clinton plan will support it,and it's affordable. And it will pass now and it covers everybody.
REPRESENTATIVE RICHARD GEPHARDT
I gotta get in here, because this is a very important point. It's a pointthat John made, as well. Just think what we say to America's people andcorporations if we now reward corporations that have not given health care,but we're not willing to do anything for those that have done the rightthing. It's just wrong. It sends the wrong message to America'sbusinesses. We've got to be even, we gotta be even and fair. My plan alsosends money to every state and local government in this country. I want topick up 60 percent of their costs for their employees. One thing I learnedwith the Clinton plan is we gotta be fair with everybody in this country.I can pass this plan. I can get people to vote for it.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Senator Edwards, why not, why not reward the corporations that havedone the right thing?
SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS
Because, first of all, let me respond to a couple of things that, that theCongressman said. First of all, if his plan was passed, a family of fourmaking $40,000 a year would lose $800, even if they already had healthcare. That money comes right out of their pocket. Second, the idea thatthis somehow will stimulate the economy is dependent on, at least in a bigchunk, almost a trillion dollars, giving that money to big corporateAmerica and assuming they're going to do the right thing. I mean, thatsounds like Reaganomics to me. I mean, are we going to assume that bigcorporations, who we give a trillion dollars of money that ought to be inthe pockets of working people are gonna, in fact, going to take care oftheir employees? That, we have a, a fundamental disagreement. We don'tdisagree about, excuse me, if I can just finish this. We, we don't, wedon't disagree about the need to address this very serious problem. Weabsolutely don't disagree with that, and I applaud Congressman Gephardt fortalking about it. It's an important issue. It's something we, asDemocrats, definitely need to talk about, but this is not the best way todo it.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
I want, I just, one last thing and I'm gonna move on.
REPRESENTATIVE RICHARD GEPHARDT
I want to say it again, I require, my plan requires every corporation topass the 60 percent on to the employees. This is not giving them money todo something else with it.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
We obviously have differences here over health care, excuse me. Andthere also seems to be a difference over taxes. Some of you have calledfor freezing the Bush tax cut where it is. Congressman Gephardt has saidhe's going to repeal almost all of it. Congressman Kucinich says raise thepayroll tax. You know what exactly what President Bush and the Republicansare going to do.
REPRESENTATIVE DENNIS KUCINICH
On the employers. On the employers.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
On the employers. You know what President Bush and the Republicansare gonna do. They're going to come out and say, "there they go again.The Democrats are raising taxes." And we just had one, one question, isthere anyone on the stage willing to say, willing to rule out raising taxesas President of any kind?
HOWARD DEAN
All I'm gonna do is, all I'm gonna do is, wait a minute. All I'm going todo is put the tax rate back to where it was when Bill Clinton wasPresident, because we did a lot better under Bill Clinton than we are underGeorge Bush.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
But that would be more than it is now.
REVEREND AL SHARPTON
I think you've got to really distinguish between raising taxes andcanceling the tax breaks that Mr. Bush has given.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
But let me ask you about this.
REVEREND AL SHARPTON
There's a big difference between, there, well . . .
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
We say there's no difference, how do you respond when we say that?(INAUDIBLE).
REVEREND AL SHARPTON
Because first of all, I call George Bush's tax breaks, even the small amounts that he gave working class people, is like Jim Jones giving Kool-Aid. It tastes good, but it'll kill you. In the long run, in the long run, it puts the entire nation in debt. It is mortgaging our grandchildren. It will bring us to a trillion-dollar debt that we cannot pay. It's, it, it is something, it gives us a tip to get in, and then we have devastation. And that is not to raise tax. That is to stop a suicidal economic plan to this economy. Let's not get confused about what we're talking about.
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
George, I'd like to comment also, if I may, on the, on health care, becauseit's important to the overall debate about the taxes and how you approachit. I want to congratulate Dick also. I think he has done us all a favor,and he's done the country a favor by putting a plan on the table. But Itend to agree with my friend, John Edwards. I think that there really is atransfer here. First of all, 80 percent of the people in America today whoare with coverage are covered by employers. So what you're really doing istaking almost 100 billion of the 200 billion that Dick transfers tocorporations, and you're not getting any guarantee of cost control. You'rerewarding the companies that are already doing what we want them to do toan enormous amount, by doubling their tax credit for it, without bringingenough people back into the system that we want to bring in. Now I think we can provide coverage. I believe that every Americanought to be able to buy in and have access to affordable health carethrough the same plan that the President, Congress, Senators givethemselves. I will lay out how you can do that, how you can buy intoMedicare from 55 years old to 64, and also how we can cover children. Butyou know, just in fairness, and this is not a squabble. This is just alegitimate debate about how you get somewhere. You know, Governor Dean,who prides himself as a doctor in approaching this, I respect that. Icompletely do. He did good things for children in the state of Vermont.But when he became Governor, 90.5 percent of the citizens of Vermont werealready covered by Dick Snelling. When he left as Governor, 90.4 percentof the people of the state of Vermont were covered. So if you don'tapproach it incrementally, you've got this problem of bringing people inthe system and getting to the percentage that America ought to get to,which is covering . . .
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Okay, well, you just made a charge against Governor Dean, so I want togive him a chance to respond.
HOWARD DEAN
I don't know what figures you're looking at, but it's probably the samefigures that you may have been looking at when you voted for thePresident's $350 billion, or your own $350 billion tax cut last week. Thatis silliness. When I came into office, Governor Madeleine Cunin, notRepublican Governor Dick Snelling, not that we don't have to say some nicethings about Republicans here, but we should avoid it when possible.Governor Madeleine Cunin had a program that insured everybody up to the ageof six to 225 percent of poverty. I expanded that up to the age of 18 for300 percent of the poverty. That means if you live in a family that makes$54,000 a year, less in our, in our state, everybody under the age of 18gets coverage. In fact, Senator, about 96.4 percent of all our people arecovered today, something which I intend to deliver to the United States ofAmerica when you all make me President.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
That's the last word on this subject. I do want to switch, and I wantto get to a South Carolina issue. Here in the state of South Carolina,it's a felony for two gay men to have sex in their own home. SenatorEdwards, do you support the right of the people of South Carolina to keepthat law on the books? Or do you think that the Constitution, under theConstitution, there is a fundamental right to privacy that protects thatright?
SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS
I believe there is a fundamental right to privacy. I do not believe thegovernment belongs in, in people's bedrooms. I think that applies to bothgay and lesbian couples and heterosexual couples. I mean, one of the, oneof the things that you see happening in America today, and it's not just,George, on this issue of the right to privacy, is we see people like JohnAshcroft, in the name of protecting America, in the name of fighting a waron terrorism, eroding our rights to privacy, eroding our civil liberties,eroding the very heart and soul of what makes this country great. And whatought to give us the moral authority to lead around the world, and this is,it all happens just like this, all around the edges. It's creeping, but wehave to be so careful and so vigilant to make sure that America does notlose what makes America great.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Ambassador Moseley Braun, do you agree with that?
CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN
I absolutely agree that gay, lesbian, transgender, and bisexual people areentitled to privacy as everybody else. I also, however, agree that we haveto take very seriously the assault on our civil liberties that thisAshcroft, this Bush Administration has, has begun, and that, frankly,Congress opened the door for with the PATRIOT Act. That act has, arguablyviolates the 1st, the 4th, the 5th, the 6th, the 8th and the 14thamendments of the Constitution, have opened the door to e-mails beingtapped, and phones being tapped, and, and, and searches, and peopledisappearing in this country for the first time. I really think we have areal crisis in America when it comes to our civil liberties, and I do hopethat, that this act will be repealed. And I hope that the American, thatwe will all take very seriously rolling back some of the assault on privacythat this Administration has begun.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
So let me, let me just go to the group. Does, does anyone on thepanel disagree with Senator Edwards and Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun?Does anybody believe South Carolina should have the right to pass this lawand keep it on the books?
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
No, George, I don't. In fact, the law relates, I'm familiar with it, notonly to gay couples, but to heterosexual couples, as well. And it's aviolation of the right of privacy. There is a case right now before theSupreme Court regarding a similar Texas law. I hope and believe it will bestruck down, because Lord knows the prosecutors have more important thingsto do than prosecute cases like this. They ought to be prosecuting drugpeddlers and criminals and all the rest.
HOWARD DEAN
Senator Graham, let me ask you another, excuse me, excuse me, ReverendSharpton. Let me ask another South Carolina question to Senator Graham.He hasn't gotten here in a little while. The senior Senator from SouthCarolina, Ernest Hollings, has worked very hard against free tradeagreements. He worked hard against NAFTA, the North American Free TradeAgreement. He worked hard at giving Presidents fast track tradingauthority. He says these free trade agreements are job killers. You votedfor them. Why is Senator Hollings wrong?
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
Senator Hollings, whose judgment I respect in most issues, I think iswrong, because America does not have the alternative of becoming aneconomically protective, protectionist nation. We have got to participateand lead in the global economy, not attempt to avoid it. Now, that doesn'tmean that we're going to engage in trade with the law of the jungle. Weneed to have some rules that are abided by, particularly in areas such aslabor and environmental standards. We need to have a level playing field,and you know what will happen if we do that? I've worked with Americansover the last 25 years, almost 400 different jobs, and I have found thatconsistently, Americans are smart. They're hard working. They'recreative. We can compete with anybody in the world, if we have a levelplaying field in trade.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Congressman Kucinich?
REPRESENTATIVE DENNIS KUCINICH
Well, you know, it's easy to talk about having a level playing field intrade. The problem is that we've lost hundreds of thousands ofmanufacturing jobs. Our manufacturing industry in Ohio, steel's beendevastated here in South Carolina. Textiles have been devastated. I thinkit's time, not just to move around the edges of this issue. It's time tocancel NAFTA and the WTO and return to a trading system that's conditionedon workers' rights, human rights, and the environment. Otherwise, workersare undermined at the bargaining table, jobs are going south, out of thecountry, and they're going further out of this, off this continent. Andwhat's happening is we're losing control of our own destiny, with a $500billion trade deficit, and with rising unemployment. And I think that acore problem here is our trade policy. It's time to get rid of NAFTA andthe WTO. Time to get rid of it.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Congressman Gephardt, you voted against NAFTA. Would you try tocancel it?
REPRESENTATIVE RICHARD GEPHARDT
Well, when I'm President, I will try to adjust or change trade treatiesthat are on the books to reflect the kinds of concerns that were broughtup, labor, human rights, environmental concerns need to be in labornegotiations, I mean, trade negotiations and trade treaties. Now, let me,let me go to what's happened. What we've done, unfortunately, in the lastyears, is that when we haven't been able to get those things reflected intreaties, whether it was NAFTA or China PNTR, we have backed off andallowed treaties to go through that do not take care of those problems.And so what's happening today is a race to the bottom. We have jobsleaving South Carolina, North Carolina, Missouri, my home state, thatoriginally went to Mexico. They're now going from Mexico to China, becausethey can get the cheapest labor in the world in China. This has to end.It's good for no one. You know, Henry Ford had a statement. He was, hewas right when he said it, and it's right today. "I gotta pay my workersenough so there's somebody to buy the cars they are making."
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Senator Kerry, Senator Lieberman.
REPRESENTATIVE RICHARD GEPHARDT
This is not complicated. We need a trade policy that reflects that belief.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
You both voted for these agreements. What's wrong with his argument?
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
Well, I think, I think what Dennis is, is saying is important, and what,what Dick is saying is important.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
But you voted for the agreement.
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
Absolutely. And it would be a terrible mistake for the United States ofAmerica to suddenly try to button up and move away from the recognitionthat the world and globalization and technology are not of our, of our sortof capacity to move around and shift. It's happening, no matter what. Wehave to manage it more effectively. This is a debate where they're talkingpast each other. What we need is not to cancel it. We need trade. AndFritz Hollings has a lot of common sense. He had a great article in thepaper today, with a number of things that would make sense to do. What'smissing is a President who's prepared to negotiate to keep it from being arush to the bottom. To raise the standards for people. President Clinton, in the end ofhis term, negotiated a trade agreement with Jordan, and began the processwith Vietnam to put a labor agreement on the side. We can negotiate araising of the standards of labor, of environment. The United States couldbe the, the marketer of sustainable development practices, of technology,of technology transfer and still open markets for us. We need to exportour capitalism and our democracy, and they go hand in hand. But we need aPresident who is prepared to, to, to negotiate the tough trade agreementsthat protect people, and here at home, we need a President who doesn'tabandon the workers who do suffer some consequences as a result of theimpact of globalization.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Last word on the subject, Senator Lieberman.
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
George, there are two parts to this question, one is trade, the other ismanufacturing. If we ever return to a protectionist policy on trade, wewould devastate the American economy and President Clinton explained why,in supporting the trade agreements you talked about. Americans are fourpercent of the world's population. There's only so much we can make andsell to one another. We've got to break down the barriers around theworld, to sell to the rest of the world products that are made here, tocreate jobs for Americans. The other problem, which is serious, is thedecline of manufacturing in America. And as President, I will lead a majorrenewal of the American manufacturing sector, which goes to using taxcredits, some of the ideas that Senator Hollings had today. The Americangovernment, when it spends $2.25 trillion every year, ought to, to theextent it can, buy American-made goods. That's the place to begin.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
We only have a couple minutes left, and Senator Lieberman, I want toask a question to you on another subject, 'cause it relates to the lastcampaign. In the 2000 campaign, Vice President Al Gore had a proposal forthe licensing of all new handguns bought by gun owners. Anyone who wantedto buy a new handgun had to get licensed. Will you support that proposalin this campaign?
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
I do not support that proposal. I have never supported such a proposal. Ibelieve that . . .
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
But you were part of the ticket.
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
Well, he, he came out with that position before I came onto it. It neverreally came up during the general election. Let me be very clear. Al Goresaid to me when I got on the ticket, "Don't change anything about yourself.That's why I chose you." The, the American citizens have a right to ownfirearms. It is no more unlimited than any other right that we have. Thelaws ought to concentrate that we pass on stopping criminals and childrenand others who shouldn't have guns from getting them. Licensing,registration, in my opinion, are bad ideas and violations of thatfundamental right.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
You've got 15 seconds left. Will anyone on this stage supportlicensing and registration in this campaign?
SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS
At the Federal level?
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
At the Federal level.
REVEREND AL SHARPTON
I, I support it. I think that we must do whatever we can to regulate howguns are used. I've been a victim of, of a stabbing. Violence issomething very serious in this country. I think that we must take itseriously. It's interesting to me we have the right to bear arms. Wedon't have the right in the Constitution to vote, we don't have the rightto health care. I think that we need to evaluate what we are as a country,and I think part of that is that we must regulate people's ability to getfirearms.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Reverend Sharpton, that's the last word. You did agree with that, aswell. That's all we're gonna have time for, for this section. We'll beback with the candidates questioning each other right after this.
ANNOUNCER
This ABC News presentation, the "First Democratic Candidates' Debate," willcontinue after this from our ABC stations.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
ANNOUNCER
This ABC News Special continues. Once again, George Stephanopoulos.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
In this round, the candidates question each other. No restrictions onwho can get the question or what can be asked, except time, 30 seconds forthe question, a minute for the answer, and Senator Kerry, you're first.
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
Dick, if I could ask you, Senator McCain and I led an effort on the floorlast year to try to raise fuel efficiency standards in the country. Andjust yesterday, they reported they're at a 22-year low. Now, the hydrogenfuel car may come in decades, they say, but between now and then, you'rethe one member of Congress here who didn't support, doesn't support raisingfuel efficiency standards. How do we get to energy independence, when 50percent or more of our fuel is in oil for transportation?
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Time.
SENATOR JOHN KERRY
How are we going to break out without raising fuel efficiency?
REPRESENTATIVE RICHARD GEPHARDT
Well, John, I agree that we need to do it. I think, however, we needstrong Presidential leadership, which I hope to provide, to put together anenergy program that includes an increase in the cafe standards, but alsoincludes setting a ten-year goal of not only reducing our mileage, ourmileage requirements on automobiles and our pollution requirements, butalso moves us to hybrid cars in the interim and to hydrogen fuel cells inthe long-term. I would put the auto companies, the oil companies, and theenvironmental groups at a table, and I would work out a ten-year plan, I'dcall it an Apollo program. And I believe we could pass it, have everybodycommitted to it, and get this done for the country.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Thank you, Congressman Gephardt. Senator Graham.
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
This is for Senator Lieberman. Yesterday, we saw the latest unemploymentreport, which hit six percent for the second time in six months. AmongAfrican-Americans, unemployment is almost 11 percent. In my opinion, theseare tragedies for America. When I was Governor of Florida, I managed acomplex state, was able to facilitate the creation of over one million newjobs, support for diversity, and for minority and other small businesses.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Question?
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
Senator Lieberman, what would you do to solve the unemployment problem, andwith it, the disparity that exists between the workforce and African-Americans?
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
Thanks for that question, Bob. The question speaks to the fact that theBush Administration has been an abysmal failure in leading our economy.We've lost 500,000 jobs in the last three months, and disproportionatelyamong African-Americans, and the problem is that this President has oneanswer to every problem, which is a tax cut, one that we can't afford, onethat is unfair and one we now know doesn't work. I think we've got to goback to the policies that worked during the Clinton-Gore years, fiscaldiscipline, smart tax cuts to help create jobs and investments ineducation, health care, and homeland security, and incidentally, sendingsome money back to the states, so states like South Carolina don't have tocut their education budget, as I gather the legislature is consideringhere, by a quarter, which may mean the laying off of 5,000, five or 6,000teachers in this state.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Thank you, Senator Lieberman.
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
In other words, let's, let's get the economy growing. A rising tide raisesall boats.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
And Senator Lieberman, you get the next question.
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
Okay, my question is to Ambassador Braun. As your last question, George,recalled, I had the honor of being the Vice-Presidential candidate in 2000.When people ask me, "how was that experience?" I say, "I loved everyminute of it until the end." That wasn't so good. That was profoundlyunfair, an election decided by five judges of the Supreme Court. But whatwe found was that African-Americans, senior Americans, new Americans weredeprived of their right to vote.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Gotta ask your question.
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
African-Americans, ten times greater than other Americans in Florida.Ambassador Braun, what can we do to make sure that in 2004, every vote iscounted?
CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN
Well, you know, you know, Senator Lieberman, I was Ambassador in NewZealand and watched that election from afar, and there was a joke aroundthat the was a black vote that decided the 2000 election, Clarence Thomas'.So, I think, I think in the first instance, we need to make absolutelycertain that the barriers to access are removed, that voting is madeeasier, that people are given a motor voter, at-home registration. We needto pursue opportunities for individuals to vote, instead of making it ahigh hurdle that they have to leap. And in all cases, make certain that wenever again allow for the stealing of an election, as happened with youand, and Senator Gore.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Thank you, Ambassador, and the next question is yours. You still havethe floor. Ambassador Moseley Braun, the next question is yours.
CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN
Oh. Well, my next question is actually to Senator Edwards. And, and thisis something, Ben Franklin once said, "They that can give up essentialliberties to obtain, obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty norsafety." And I have, I and the many other people have real concerns thatthe PATRIOT Act vastly expanded government power of surveillance, wiretaps,arbitrary detention, investigation. And arguably, again, violates all theamendments to the Constitution that I named, the 1st, the 4th, the 5th, the6th, the 8th, and the 14th amendment.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Question?
CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN
Well, will you vote to repeal, you voted for this bill. Will you vote torepeal it, will you vote to restore the civil liberties guaranteed toAmericans and privacy guaranteed to Americans by the Constitution?
SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS
Well, first, Senator Braun, you and I, as you heard me say earlier tonight,share that concern. I think it's a very serious concern. It's somethingall of us should be worried about. I think the problem with the PATRIOTAct is not the law itself, it's the way it's being administered,particularly the way it's being administered by the Attorney General of theUnited States, General Ashcroft. And we have had consistent problems withthis. It is why I have proposed taking away from the FBI theresponsibility of fighting terrorism here in this country, andsimultaneously setting up an independent watchdog group, Office of CivilLiberties and Civil Rights, to watch what's happening and to make sure thatnone of us are losing our civil liberties, our civil rights, the thingsthat, as I said earlier, I believe make America great.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
You all are making my job easy. Senator Edwards, you get the nextquestion.
SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS
Thank you, George. Senator Graham, you and I are both from the south, andyou may have seen in recent days that I have been criticized for sayingthat I believe it's really important for people from the south to lead, notfollow on civil rights, that I think it's important for us to have judgesthat we know will enforce our civil rights laws, that I believe thePresident is wrong about the affirmative action program at the Universityof Michigan. What do you believe we, as Southerners, can do to lift up andembrace people who today, not 40 years ago, today still suffer the effectsof discrimination every minute of their lives?
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
Well, one of the things that I would do, John, is to see that we put theCivil War behind us. Frankly, we Southerners have allowed the most extremegroups within our society to steal the images of the Confederacy and thenuse them as sources of division and hatred within our population. We alsoneed to see that every child is not left behind. The promise of PresidentBush, but not the reality of President Bush, because he has failed to fundthat legislation. I believe that the fundamental way in which we willbring our society together is through improvement of our education for allof our children.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Thank you, Senator Graham. Governor Dean, you're next.
HOWARD DEAN
This is a question for Senator Graham also. I got into this race because Iwanted health care for every American, I wanted a balanced budget, and Iwanted to have a party that stood up to, to President Bush, because I thinkthat's the only way we can beat him. You and Senator Hollings and I havesomething in common, we all are former Governors, we've all balancedbudgets. Fritz Hollings had an amendment a couple of weeks ago that wouldzero out the President's tax cut. You voted for that amendment. SenatorEdwards, Senator Kerry, and Senator Lieberman did not vote. They voted foran amendment that would add $350 billion in additional tax cuts.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Question?
HOWARD DEAN
Why'd you make that choice?
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
I made that choice because I think it's reckless and irresponsible, at atime of rising deficits, at a time that we're at war with uncertain costsof completing the war and then completing the occupation and renewal ofIraq, to be talking about cutting $1.2 billion, and that was, $1.2trillion, and that was what Senator Hollings' amendment eliminated from theFederal budget. I believe that, that we need to return to the days offiscal discipline, as we did under the Administration of Bill Clinton.When he left office, we had a $5 trillion surplus. Barely two years later,we've got a $2 trillion deficit, a $7 trillion turn in the finances ofAmerica, and do you know who is going to be paying those bills? It's goingto be our grandchildren, 'cause we're going to give them a credit card thatwill be listed as overdrawn for our excessive behavior.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Thank you, Senator Graham. Congressman Kucinich.
REPRESENTATIVE DENNIS KUCINICH
Senator Lieberman, you and Dick Gephardt were two of the biggest supportersof President Bush's war against Iraq. You both endorsed his proposal for aunilateral first strike. The President's ever-changing reasons for goingto war have not been justified by the evidence. Now, how can we, asDemocrats, win this election if we simply rubber-stamp this President'sdestabilizing foreign policy of preemption and nuclear first strike,without offering a serious alternative?
SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
Dennis, I'd say, how can we win this election if we send a message ofweakness on defense and security after September 11th, 2001 to the Americanpeople? Protecting their security, giving them a sense of safety, makingsure people in this country are not worried when their loved ones go out tothe mall or take a train, go to a movie theater, that is the first goal ofour government, and that means being strong on defense and homelandsecurity. The war against Saddam Hussein was right. You know, I neverviewed it as part of a preemption policy of the Bush Administration. Iopposed that policy. I think it was foolish to declare such a policy. Itoutraged both our enemies and our allies around the world. A nation alwayspreserves the right to take preemptive action in defense of our securityand our freedom. But why, why, why declare it and offend and provokeeveryone? I viewed the war against Saddam Hussein as the last battle inthe Gulf War of 1991. It was a battle to enforce the promises that Saddammade then, and never kept.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Thank you, Senator Lieberman. Reverend Sharpton.
REVEREND AL SHARPTON
Senator Graham, as I travel around doing voter registration, one of themain concerns with people for 2004 is what happened in 2000. And ithappened in your state. I also take note that when members of theCongressional Black Caucus came to the Senate, there was not even, not oneDemocrat let them be heard on the floor about that. There's a proposal inthe House to make voting a constitutional amendment. On a Senate level,would you support or even sponsor a complementary piece of legislation tomake voting a constitutional amendment, so it's not a state's right and weend up with a repeat of what we had in the year 2000?
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
Reverend, I, the answer to your question is probably no. I have not seenthe amendment that's been offered in the House, but I believe in theprinciple of states having responsibility for the conduct of theirelections. Now, the Congress has just recently passed a national electionreform bill, which will set some general standards, but more importantly,will provide funds to the states in order to upgrade the quality of theirelection technology, the training of election personnel, and the otherthings that we found to be deficient in our state of Florida. We're notproud of what happened in our state. I think, however, had the electionbeen as close in any other state, similar fractures would have been seen,and therefore, the wisdom of a, not a national takeover, but a nationalassistance for fair election reform.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Thanks, Senator Graham. Congressman Gephardt, last question.
REPRESENTATIVE RICHARD GEPHARDT
Senator Graham, again, you, you are worthy Governor of one of the largeststates in the country, you did a great job. We now have a situation wheremost states are in horrible deficits. Many are laying off teachers andother things and Medicaid. My question to you is, my health care plansends $172 billion over three years to the states for health care for theiremployees. I mean, $2.5 billion for South Carolina. What plan would youbring forward to help the states through these tough times that they're innow?
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM
Dick, you're absolutely right that this is a very difficult time forstates. I was told yesterday that the South Carolina teacher of the year has been given a dismissal notice because of the cutbacks that will berequired in her particular school district.
[Transcript ends.]
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