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[Note: A transcript of this meeting is unavailable. The discussion is summarized below.]

November 7, 2001

Not for Attribution

On November 7, 2001, the Council’s National Program continued its conference call series on America’s Response to Terrorism with members from across the country and around the world.

Sippi Azerbajiani-Moghaddam led off with brief remarks and Michael P. Peters, Senior Vice President of the Council on Foreign Relations, chaired the session.

Ms. Azerbajiani-Moghaddam, the Pakistan Representative of the Women’s Commission for Refugee Women and Children, has been based in Central Asia for the past 9 years, working with the refugee population in Pakistan and the internally displaced in Afghanistan.

This summary report was adapted from the original transcript.

Michael Peters opened the session with the following Question:

What is the nature of the refugee crisis in Afghanistan and the impact of the current military operations there?

Sippi Azerbajiani-Moghaddam responded with the following points:

Timeline of migrations

• Afghanistan has had waves of refugees of different socioeconomic situations and backgrounds flowing out to the surrounding countries. The first wave after the Soviet invasion in 1979; the second wave after the fall of the Soviet-backed regime and the subsequent factional fighting between Mujahadeen groups in 1992; and the next wave when the Taliban took over most of the country. Throughout this period, there has also been a lot of internal displacement from urban to rural areas and moving around within rural areas to avoid ethnic tensions.

• In 1999, there was a large displacement of people as the Taliban pushed up into the Shibali plain above Kabul and pursued a scorch-dearth policy of destroying agricultural lands, irrigation systems, and vineyards, and of burning houses. Thousands of families went to Kabul or to Mazar-i-Sharif. In 2000, there was the displacement of people into Herat from the Bora province and from other northwestern provinces as a result of drought.

• As the Taliban frontlines in the northeast moved toward the northeastern provinces of Kunduz and Taloqan, twenty thousand people were displaced into some islands in the Amu Darya River between Tajikistan and Afghanistan, and remain there. The displaced from Herat are also there. The displaced from Shamali are still in Kabul, some in the former Soviet Embassy compound.

Impact of America’s military operations in Afghanistan

• This conflict has existed for 22 years. The American bombings have obviously created displacements, but it is currently estimated that half a million people had become internally displaced inside of Afghanistan before the bombings began. The two largest refugee populations in countries around Afghanistan are in Iran (about 2 million) and in Pakistan (2 to 3 million). These numbers are based on registered cases. There are many who are not registered and are trying to camouflage themselves, especially in Iran.

• The bombings have not resulted in huge movements of refugees into Pakistan and Iran as predicted. Recent waves of refugees coming across the border are getting poorer and poorer, and many people may no longer have the means to leave Afghanistan.

• Many people have not moved outside of Afghanistan because they have not found an option that is safer than one within their country. Instead, most have chosen to move into the rural areas, away from the bombardments.

Risks of migration

• Loss of assets and looting of property.

• Harm from aerial bombardments.

• Higher smuggling prices.

• Insecurity of movement, especially for children. Girls being abducted and boys being taken and forced to join the Taliban.

• Violence at the borders. The Pakistan police indiscriminately beat Afghan women and children as they cross the borders.

• Placement and security of the refugee camps. UNHCR and the government in Pakistan are suggesting that camps be set up in the so-called tribal areas—the northwestern frontier provinces of Pakistan where the government has no authorities and tribal law dominates. UNHCR staff and other NGO representatives will have to move around with armed guards and mobility will be restricted.

Challenges for UN and other agency staff

• There are reports from the UN and other agencies that their national staff are currently traveling around Afghanistan trying to find information about displaced populations. However, the staff is male and will mostly be talking to men due to the restrictions that the community imposes on women. As a result, women’s issues will be neglected.

Sippi Azerbajiani-Moghaddam addressed the following questions:

Question from CA: With the upcoming winter, what will happen to the internally displaced inside Afghanistan, especially those that are at immediate risk of starvation?

• Even if the borders were to open tomorrow, many people would face starvation because a lot of populations have been neglected, especially those people in the highland area (northeast and center of Afghanistan) where there are major logistical constraints in supplying food. The bombardments are making logistics even more difficult because truckers are reluctant to deliver supplies. Airlifts may or may not be helpful, but local NGOs need to be on the ground to ensure that food reaches the hungry.

Question from GA: Are refugee children who have lost their mothers and fathers particularly susceptible to recruitment by the Taliban? Are there special programs for these orphans?

• The Taliban recruits adults who hold their same conservative views. There are children who have lost their entire family and come across the border with other families. There are agencies who provide additional assistance to these surrogate families so that these children can be fed, but a longer-term solution must be found.

Question from CA: What would you recommend the U.S. government do in the face of the crisis you have described?

• The most important thing is that the neighbors of Afghanistan open their borders and put refugees who come across the border into secure areas. The option of the tribal areas, for example, is really unacceptable. Security is needed for organizations such as Afghan women’s organizations whose security is compromised by more conservative elements in Pakistan or conservative Afghan elements within the refugee camps. The U.S. government can put pressure on the Pakistani government to respect a number of these issues.

Question from CA: Of the multiple reasons for immigration and displacement, is there a way to tell how much of the movement is as a result of people escaping the oppression of the Taliban?

• It is difficult to say. Certainly many families with school-aged daughters have left for their education. But the economy has been an enormous factor. As the Taliban’s power took hold in Afghanistan, international isolation followed as did extensive economic deterioration. Men have been forced to migrate out of Afghanistan in order to live.

Question from CA: Is it true that women are treated as badly in Pakistan as they are in Afghanistan under the Taliban?

• Honor killings in Pakistan are a big problem. Statistics about sexual abuse, rape, and murder of women in dowry disputes and honor killings are really quite horrific and in most cases the police doesn’t act. There is no commitment from the Musharraf government for Pakistan women. There is even less commitment to deal with alien populations or provide security to NGO organizations.

• In trying to deal with the women’s situation, especially in the surrounding countries, the U.S. government is going to come face to face with the prickly issue of how committed these countries are to women’s rights and how much they will allow international agencies to work for human rights on their soil.

Question from CA: Can you tell us more about these Afghan women’s organizations, which I imagine are in exile, and what they are doing?

• There are a number of Afghan women’s NGOs operating in Pakistan, and also in Iran. They deal with all sorts of issues, ranging from relief distribution, health, education, trauma counseling, sexual violence, and domestic violence. There is at least one organization which works cross-border and inside Afghanistan. There are grassroot initiatives and programs of international NGOs run by Afghan women domestically. One, for example, has a maternal and child health project in Kabul, and the women run that in Kabul and are mobile.

Question from KY: What are the political inclinations of the refugees and the internally displaced persons with respect to the Taliban and other factions?

• There is not much support for either the Taliban or the Northern Alliance. Over the years, these warring factions have set up “black economies” or war economies with conflict entrepreneurship systems looting everything from gems to antiquities, chopping down ancient forests, trafficking their own people, and smuggling drugs.

• There are some elements that support the Taliban in the refugee context, but the majority of people are simply interested in a political power that will restore security to their country, bring peace, and allow them to live their lives. This was best explained by a refugee in Pakistan who said: “I just want to feed myself, feed my family with respect, have a Muslim government, a god-fearing government, and be able to send my children to school. That’s all I want.”

Question from OH: What has been the international response in providing food and humanitarian aid?

• The international community’s response has definitely stepped up compared to pre-September 11. Some of the UN agencies and international agencies have been able to set up some rather unusual means to try and deal with logistical problems. For example, the World Food Programme (WFP) has hired an arctic expert and put him in the Hindu Kush to set up some sort of camp for people trying to drive food into these rough mountain areas in the winter.

Question from RI: How effective are current food distribution programs?

• Food airdrops are better than nothing, but there are negative lateral issues: the yellow food parcels looking similar to cluster bombs, food dropping into mine fields, and what we’ve seen are conflict entrepreneurs, not civilians, collecting the packages.

Question from CA: What might happen to the internal and external refugees if the United States is successful and the Taliban regime collapses?

• A large number of people will go back if the economy improves, if children can go to school, and if people can receive health care. Obviously, big issues we need to consider is assistance for long-term reconstruction—rebuilding agricultural systems, improving infrastructure, allowing people to build their houses, and clearing land mines.

Question from CA: How is Iran treating refugees and do you expect that border to remain open?

• The situation in Iran has not been good. The Afghans have been viewed as freeloaders and represented as such in the press. Economic woes of Iran have been blamed on Afghans. There has been a growing hostility and racism towards Afghans. The government has made it more and more difficult for Afghans to work in Iran. At some stage, one of the ministries imposed a rule that every employer who hired an Afghan would have to pay $50 for that worker, a hefty sum in Iran. As a result, many Afghans, therefore, have lost their jobs. Also, Iran has received no international assistance in dealing with Afghan refugees who have been there for all these years.

Question from CA: Why do you think so many women in Afghanistan appear to embrace a version of Islam that is so hard on their gender?

• Afghanistan has held conservative ideologies and resisted education for women long before the Taliban came to rule. Even during the Soviet occupation, when the Communist government encouraged girls to attend school, this was seen as suspicious and the response was to blow up those schools. Women have clung to their cultural version of Islam, as a result of not being educated or having access to the outside world.

Question from CA: There seems to be inconsistencies regarding the treatment of the Taliban toward women. Are women better off in some areas as opposed to others?

• The Taliban is not entirely Pashtun. There is a large number of Hazaras and Tajiks. Some of these people come from provinces where education has been highly valued, and they will turn a blind eye to schools in certain areas. When the Taliban came up with the law that women cannot be employed in any profession except health care, the minister of health tried to employ as many women as possible under the health-care umbrella. This is a result of the mishmash of political and ethnics groups. Some officials were with the communists, others were associated with the conservative Mujahadeen factions. And their behavior also depends on the community where they are based.

Question from TX: With reports of refugees blaming the U.S. military actions for their plight, can we quantify how much the U.S. campaign is to blame for their plight?

• The situation was not good before September 11. Factional fighting and displacement was already a problem. Many people did not hear about what happened in America on September 11 and simply saw U.S. planes dropping bombs a few weeks later. For them, it was easy to blame the United States.