Challenges Facing the U.S. Military, With John Barrientos and Kristen Thompson

LINDSAY:
Welcome to The President's Inbox, a CFR podcast about the foreign policy challenges facing the United States. I'm Jim Lindsay, director of Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. This week's topic is, Challenges Facing the U.S. Military. With me to provide an inside view of how the U.S. military is adapting to the challenges it faces in an era of renewed geopolitical competition are Captain John Barrientos and Colonel Kristen Thompson. John and Kristen are both spending a year at the Council as visiting military fellows.
John is a captain in the United States Navy. He was most recently the reactor officer on the aircraft carrier the USS Carl Vinson where he was deployed to the Western Pacific. Kristen is a Colonel in the United States Air Force. She was most recently the commander of the 55th Wing at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska, where she was responsible for organizing, training, and equipping six groups and thirty squadrons, executing worldwide intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance missions, electronic attack, and nuclear command control and communication support. Earlier this month, President Biden nominated Kristen for promotion to Brigadier General. John and Kristen are speaking today in their personal capacity and their views do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S. government generally or the Department of Defense specifically. John and Kristen, thank you for coming on The President's Inbox.

THOMPSON:
Thanks, Jim.

BARRIENTOS:
Thanks, Jim. Thanks for having us.

LINDSAY:
Kristen, let's start with you. I want to begin with sort of a personal question, if I may. Why did you join the United States Air Force?

THOMPSON:
Well, thanks, Jim. Thanks for having us. I would say the reason I joined the United States Air Force was kind of by happenstance. It's kind of a funny story. I did okay in high school academically, but I really had the sports gene, and so I was very keen, my number one priority for where I went to college or university was to play soccer. So, I ended up going out on a recruiting visit to the Air Force Academy as I was going through the application process, and I absolutely loved it. There's so many things to love about Colorado. The Air Force Academy in particular so, what a wonderful team. The mountains are gorgeous, really small classroom sizes, the opportunity to study a whole host of different subjects really appealed to me, and then, of course, the discipline.
But when I got there, I just absolutely fell in love with the place, fell in love with all of my teammates. The eight girls that I showed up with in our recruiting class are still some of my eight best friends, and we're all still in contact with each other, which is really cool. And then, the opportunity to fly, of course, was something that I found really profound and I really cherished that opportunity. To go and be able to have the opportunity to fly, I thought that was something, if I'm going to be in the Air Force, I wanted to do something that was super cool and I figured flying was the ultimate opportunity, and being able to fly so many different airplanes across my career really started at the Air Force Academy.

LINDSAY:
So, what did you start out flying?

THOMPSON:
I started flying the T-37.

LINDSAY:
T as in trainer?

THOMPSON:
T as in trainer. It's been retired. They transferred to the T-6. So, I started in small little jets and then as you progress you move into a Learjet, and then from the Learjet I moved into what I normally say are big airplanes, the E-3 AWACS, and then most recently the RC-135. But when I was deployed, I had the opportunity to fly everything from drones up into big tanker aircraft and everything in between. So, it was quite, quite remarkable.

LINDSAY:
Favorite plane to fly?

THOMPSON:
Oh man, Jim.

LINDSAY:
I know I'm asking you to pick among your children. I get that.

THOMPSON:
I would say most of my hours, I have close to 4,000 hours, were predominantly in the E-3 AWACS, so both the U.S. version and the NATO version. But I absolutely loved flying the RC-135 and all its variants as well.

LINDSAY:
I want to shift to John now, if I may. And John, I'll ask you the same question. Why did you join the United States Navy?

BARRIENTOS:
So, I was raised by a single mother, just my mother and my twin brother, actually. And it was pretty clear early on that if I was going to go to college, which I wanted to do, I'd have to find my own way to do it. In the end, I found I had several different scholarships, but the Navy always, it intrigued me. The idea of going and seeing the ocean and traveling and seeing other ports intrigued me very much. My brother had gotten the scholarship as well, but he decided not to take it so I always kinda see what my life would've been like had I gone the conventional route, just gone to college the way he did.
So like I said, in the end, I joined the Navy and the Navy just had so many different benefits and the chance to study and to be able to go to college and to not worry about the finances was amazing. I also joined the Navy because I knew that I needed to find a way to mature and to grow and find a way to be more assertive and to find my voice. So when I joined the Navy, my initial plan was just to do four years and then get out.

LINDSAY:
So where did you end up going to school, because you didn't go to the Naval Academy?

BARRIENTOS:
No, I didn't. I took an ROTC scholarship, that's Reserve Officer Training Corps Scholarship to the University of Michigan where I studied-

LINDSAY:
My favorite university in the world.

BARRIENTOS:
Mine too.

LINDSAY:
National champions in football this year.

BARRIENTOS:
Yes, sir.

LINDSAY:
Sorry, I had to put that in. Okay, so you had thought that you were just going to do four years and leave, and that sort of anticipates my next question, which is, why'd you stay in?

BARRIENTOS:
So after four years, actually five years, because I was a nuclear trained option, I actually found myself that I liked the person I was becoming, but I didn't think I was quite there yet. So, I signed on for another five-year contract to go and continue that journey. But it was also the people that I worked with. I really enjoyed working with other folks and from all likes, from all parts of the country. I found myself enjoying the leadership aspects of it, and in the end, by the time I got to the ten-year mark, I had been selected for command, so to be captain of a ship, and I just couldn't turn that option down. So, that took me to the twenty-year mark, and here I am, twenty-four years later. Just all the opportunities the Navy's provided to me have been tremendous.

LINDSAY:
Best port of call?

BARRIENTOS:
My best port of call I think I'd say was Hong Kong. I actually went to Hong Kong a few times, the last time in 2011 and I really enjoyed the food, the culture, the atmosphere. I loved the sightseeing. It was an amazing place.

LINDSAY:
Hong Kong is a wonderful place, though I think it's not quite the same since the Chinese essentially revoked the agreement with Great Britain and seized direct control. But Kirsten, I'm going to ask you the same question. You signed up in the Air Force. You did your initial commitment and you stayed on. Why did you stay on?

THOMPSON:
Yeah, Jim. I would say for me 100 percent it was because of the people. I had so many life altering and game-changing moments, I would say, with many of the humans in my life that I not only got to serve with but serve alongside of. And for me, that was probably the most special part. I didn't mention before when we were initially talking about my time at the Air Force Academy, but my younger sister was there with me when I was a firstie or a senior. She was freshman or a four degree. Having that really special bond as sisters that we had in high school and then we were able to carry on into college was really, really impactful for me and certainly for my family. And then, I would say too, being a commander, it just affords you the opportunity to shape people's lives in such a positive way, shape, or form. And especially being a Commander in combat. So many times I either sent people off to war or I went to war with them, but seeing them come back from those missions and those opportunities with a huge smile on their face or a lot of pride swelling in their heart really has a profound impact on you, and really had me thinking that this is really the right line of work for me because I feel like I'm having an out-sized impact on so many people's lives. And then, in return, all of those people having such a wonderful out-sized impact on my life. It's just really, really wonderful, especially when you see folks coming back with that American flag patch on their uniform. There's something really special about that.

LINDSAY:
So you both entered military service back when counterinsurgency was the main thrust of our military doctrine, certainly the main focus, even though obviously given the size and very large mission set for all of the services, counterterrorism wasn't the only thing on the docket. But now we're in an era of great power competition, a lot more talk about major power war and certainly the Russian invasion of Ukraine raised that once again to the forefront. So I'm left wondering how you have seen the military change or evolve in light of the shift in the geopolitical environment. Maybe we could begin with you Kristen.

THOMPSON:
Jim, I graduated back in 2001, so just a couple of months prior to the September 11th attack. So, obviously, quite a profound moment for me, not only as a young officer, but for me certainly as an American. But I would say the things that we've seen shift over the years, certainly from when I started to where I am now, is the strategic environment. So I would say - I would tell all of my air crews all of the time, when you fly on a big airplane and you've got a really important mission, a lot of the tactical decisions that we make on board our platforms or in our service or in our military, not only often, but always have strategic implications or strategic consequences. So, we always have to be on our game, we always have to be on our toes because we never know what's going to happen, especially in light of great power competition. And then I'd also say as we're looking toward the future, I've seen the evolution of our air force and our airmen and our workforce certainly have to shift. So, I would say, as we build the airmen or the war fighter of the future, they have to be mindful of being multi-domain fluent.

LINDSAY:
What do you mean by multi-domain? What does that mean?

THOMPSON:
It means not only understanding what we do as airmen and practitioners of air power, but understanding our land force and our sea force, our space force, our cyber force. If you're not able to be conversant in a lot of those different languages, we become obsolete pretty darn quick. And then I would say also we expect of our folks to be what we call mission commanders. So when we're fighting enemies across great geographic expanses, being able to take a set of orders as a young leader and go and execute, certainly in the gray space, not having enough time or capital or resources or information, being able to do what we ask of our folks, that's going to be really hard. So being able to navigate those gray spaces is going to be something we're really going to be looking to for folks as we move into a new era of great power competition.

LINDSAY:
John, let me ask the same question of you. Again, the Navy has a very long history. It dates back to 1775. Its mission's set and one level has never really changed. On the other hand, it's gone through a wide variety of different versions of itself. How does the Navy think about its evolution and the challenges it currently faces?

BARRIENTOS:
Yeah, thanks, Jim. So, as you said, the Navy, at least since the Cold War, has had unfettered access of sea lanes throughout the world. So we've gotten very accustomed to be able to go anywhere at any time to project power from anywhere, and as we're seeing with great power competition, some of those lanes, some of those areas are being contested so it's not going to be as simple as it has been in the past. You'd have to be sleeping under a rock to not realize the world's getting more complicated and I don't think looking into the future it's going to get any less complicated. It's just going to get more complicated. That being said, all the services are going to have a greater challenge of being required to be in more places around the world, and the Navy is part of that. So when you look at shipbuilding and manning, those are certainly problems that have been well publicized. And just recently, the Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Lisa Franchetti said at the Navy League's Annual Sea Air and Space Conference in National Harbor Maryland just last week that every study since 2016 has shown the Navy needs to be bigger. And Admiral Franchetti said that we have to invest in industrial-based workforce infrastructure along with industry partners and increase our supply chain resiliency through AI to accelerate that. Secretary of the Navy, Del Toro, has been championing shipbuilding and recently traveled to Korea to the Mitsubishi shipbuilding plant to see their best practices and try to take some of those practices and bring back to the United States.

LINDSAY:
Let me draw you out on that because there's an awful lot there because partly it's a question of, do we have enough? There's also the question of, do we have the right stuff? Do we have sufficient flexibility? And I know the Navy has talked about having to get larger, but the Navy's expensive. Your hardware, if you look at outfitting an aircraft carrier, that's a multi-billion dollar investment. When you have an aircraft carrier, it's not by itself. It comes with a whole set of ships that are designed to protect it. How is the Navy thinking about its composition? Not just numbers, I understand wanting to get larger, but how does the Navy think about what the right assortment of ships is? I know a number of years ago there was talk about, and they actually invested in building these littoral combat ships. I think the Navy has now decided not to go down that road. Give me a sense of naval thinking about the composition. Are we going to be leaving aircraft carriers behind as we once left battleships behind?

BARRIENTOS:
That's a great question. If you look, every year, the defense industry puts out the future years defense program in a thirty-year shipbuilding plan. This year called for 381 manned ships, including 134 unmanned vessels. If you look at that budget, it's still budgets for aircraft carriers, submarines, surface vessels. I think there's still a place for aircraft carriers as well as surface ships. As you can see, submarines can't do some of those missions that those larger platforms can. On October 7, when Hamas attacked Israel, the first thing the President did was move the Ford Carrier Strike Group to the Eastern Mediterranean. Ford was already in the Mediterranean, so the aircraft carrier proved itself a very vital platform.

LINDSAY:
Obviously, aircraft carriers are very good for force projection because they move and they can go around the world.

BARRIENTOS:
Yes, that's right. So, it's still the most mobile airport in the world, and I think as we move forward, it'll always be the most mobile platform, it'll always be useful, it'll always have its place.

LINDSAY:
But it also is a big expensive piece of equipment that is potentially vulnerable to anti-ship missiles and attacks.

BARRIENTOS:
That is true. The Navy has been looking at this for a long time, including advanced techniques in electronic warfare and sensing platforms. We can use the aircraft carriers to extreme effect. I think we can still find a place for them, move them further out, and still project their aircraft from further out if necessary.

LINDSAY:
Kristen, I want to come and talk about the Air Force in terms of its procurement plans and the same dynamics operate. Planes have gotten a lot more expensive. They are multi-million dollar pieces of equipment, so the loss of any one is significant. And also, with the high price tag means you can't buy as many as you might have before. But there's also been the development of drone technology, unmanned aircraft of a variety of styles and type, and we're seeing drones used in the Russian war on Ukraine in particular. How is the Air Force thinking about manned aircraft versus drones versus other ways of carrying out its mission?

THOMPSON:
Yeah, Jim, I would say obviously the environment that we find ourselves in right now, the strategic environment, is definitely very consequential and very interesting and very oftentimes complicated. So having the full suite of capabilities accessible to airmen to go employ is obviously very important. And then being able to do the combined arms things that we do.

LINDSAY:
What is combined arms, for people who aren't up with military lingo?

THOMPSON:
Yeah, just being able to partner and understand the languages of the other services that we work with. As a power projection capability, being able to work with the Navy in that sense is obviously really important. I was very fortunate when I was a deployed Commander in the Gulf region, having F-35s, top-of-the-line platform with all of the electronic warfare suite and all of the really Gucci technology that we need in today's forces to go against a really high-powered and difficult adversary. And then we had RQ-4s and EQ-4s.

LINDSAY:
What are those?

THOMPSON:
Drones that we were able to use to make sense of the environment in which we were operating as well too. So, seeing that full suite of capabilities was really important for me, not only as an air power practitioner, but then understanding the larger air power construct in prosecuting an air war in areas that I was operating in is obviously very important. I would also say too, it's also really important, I just came from a numbered air force that was really big on information warfare. So, teaching our airmen the importance of collecting, sensing, gathering data, making sense of that data, the sharing of that data and then the protecting of that data is obviously really important. And that applies to everything that we do in the Air Force, whether it's operate platforms, do intelligence surveillance reconnaissance, like I did at my last base. So, I think information warfare is certainly somewhere where we're starting to see a lot of forces trend toward because we know it's a really important capability to have for the future.

LINDSAY:
Does that create a potential vulnerability for the Air Force or for the other services, the dependence upon being able to see, depending upon a very well-developed network of systems, particularly being able to operate in space? It gives the United States a decided advantage, but obviously there's a risk of becoming blinded. And then, how do you operate? How does the Air Force think about those sorts of issues?

THOMPSON:
Yeah, Jim, I would say a lot of it has to do with resilience in and amongst the different forces and those capabilities that we bring to bear. Like I said, if we can harness all of that data, we can share that data with our partners that also need that same data, make sense of it, and then obviously all of the tools and techniques that we can develop to protect that data is going to be really important moving forward - having those really resilient command and control architectures. So, they come from a background where command and control, or C-2 as we call it, is really important. So, being able to take that data and then use that data to benefit all of the different platforms that we are networked to. And that could be Air Force platforms, that could be Navy platforms, Army, any of our partners, and across the globe, it's going to be really, really, really key to make sure that we have those nodes that are not only resilient, but are protected.

LINDSAY:
You both have alluded to the issue of unmanned capabilities. We're also seeing the rise of artificial intelligence and what I've heard described as AI military integration. And that leads to a lot of talk about the so-called "man in the loop problem," or I've also heard it described as "human at the helm" in which we're trying to make sure we both get the best out of technology, but we don't turn all of our decisions over to the technology. I'm curious, and I'll begin with you, John, how do you think about going forward as we have a technology AI, which is rapidly developing its role in the Navy going forward?

BARRIENTOS:
To be clear, we've always had some sort of artificial intelligence when we look at the Aegis Weapon System.

LINDSAY:
You have to explain what the Aegis Weapon System is.

BARRIENTOS:
The Aegis Weapon System is the entire defensive sweep. It includes the radar, the tracking radars, the acquisition radar, the sensing, and the hardware and software in order to track, acquire an inbound missile or aircraft, and make a fire control solution and send another missile back at it.

LINDSAY:
Fire control solution is locating the target and shooting it down?

BARRIENTOS:
Locating the target and shooting it down. So when you look at it, in the past, we've had that for a long time, and that system has several different settings. You can go to fully automatic, in which case, once it sees inbound aircraft or missile with a certain profile, certain elevation, certain speed, it'll acquire it, track it, and send a missile right at it. You can have it in fully automatic mode, but we typically don't do that unless we think we absolutely have to. For the most part, you can set up the system so that it does all the work, but then at the very end requires an operator to actually fire the missile. So, I think in the same light, our use of AI will be the same way. We'll always have a human in the loop to actually go offensive. Defensively, we might let the AI do what it needs to do depending on how much time we have, but I think there'll always be a human in the loop in order to actually attack and kill the enemy.

LINDSAY:
Kristen, let me ask you the same question. How is the Air Force thinking about the issue of artificial intelligence in AI military integration?

THOMPSON:
My time here at CFR has really afforded me the opportunity to dig into areas such as AI, which may have been a little bit outside of my wheelhouse as a commander. What I've really seen in talking to tech experts across New York City and D.C. and even out in Northern California, is how important AI is for us moving forward. Not only from a tech base, but certainly from a military. We talked about what it takes to be a leader today, not only in the military, but in an executive of any company. And it's being able to understand finance, trade, commerce, AI, climate change, how all those aspects of our economy play into a leadership role, certainly across multiple industries, and AI just being one of those really important pillars. The Air Force being a very technical force with the desire to pursue a lot of technical solutions, and certainly the same thing with the Space Force, automation is really huge for us. And then, automation, certainly with AI. I talked about earlier, we have lots of data. I came from a base where we had a platform that just sucked up a ton of data and information and stored a lot of that information. What we need to be able to do essentially and at some point is to have probably some AI or automated tool that can make sense of all of that data and then get that data to someone that needs it in a very timely method. And then I think when we talk about having a human in the loop, having the human that makes sense of that data and then uses it for whatever reasons it needs to use it, then that's the part that will continue to persist because we will need, when it comes to targeting or making those really hard decisions, you will want to have a human in the loop, for sure.

BARRIENTOS:
Jim, if I can also add, AI isn't just going to be used in necessarily the strict war fighting sense. It's also going to be used in the supply chain resiliency. We'll be able to use AI to tell what parts we're going to need, how we need to outfit them, where are the best routes take them throughout the world. I think AI is going to infiltrate into everything that we do and it's only going to make it better. It's going to make it easier for the worker to actually do their job. I think AI is only going to accelerate what we do and I think it's going to be the boon for the entire DOD.

LINDSAY:
We've been talking a lot about equipment and the role that AI might play in making that equipment more effective in the battlefield or in the battle space, but I want to come back and talk about people. You both are in services that are very large. I've read a lot about the military's challenges in recruiting. I think it's been less a problem for the Air Force than for some of the other services. And I guess I have a two-prong question for you, and we'll begin with Kristen, which is, what would be your argument, your pitch, so to speak, to someone, a young person that'd be listening to this podcast about why they should join the military or the Air Force, if you want to make it parochial, what would it be?

THOMPSON:
It offers you some wonderful opportunities to serve with people that share your same values. If I were to tell Americans something that they should know about the Air Force and certainly other military members is we do bring our values to the fight.

LINDSAY:
What would you describe those values as?

THOMPSON:
Sticking up for others, seeing things from other people's point of view, not backing down in face of adversity, taking care of other people, being a part of an elite team, and certainly the ones that we hold so dear as far as democracy and freedom of speech. All of those things that make us American are really, really cool and I think really impactful for young men and women looking for an opportunity to do something that is probably greater than themselves. And then I would say too, the opportunity to partner with other nations across the world in benefit of so many others, I think is really crucial too.
I know in my last assignment, I had airplanes airborne twenty-two of twenty-four hours a day, spanned all across the globe, I think it was like eleven time zones, and there was no way if our young airmen didn't bring their values to the fight that we couldn't be in many of those same consequential nations doing the business on behalf of our wonderful American interests. So I think there's probably something on the very human level that people can all connect to, and it is those unique and wonderful American values that we all share.

LINDSAY:
John, let me ask you the same question, and I'll ask it particularly in the case of the Navy, because the Navy has ships and people have to go on those ships and they're on deployment for long periods of time, which means they're away from family and friends. What would you say to someone thinking about going into the Navy, particularly against that backdrop? Because there clearly are sacrifices that all service members and all the services have to make.

BARRIENTOS:
I think specifically with respect to the Navy, I think when a sailor looks at what they did just to get the ship underway, the amount of work, it takes every single person on a ship, a destroyer of 300 people, it takes everybody involved to do their part to get the ship underway. And I think when they look at that, their role in making that ship get underway and then deploying and being able to do all the missions that these ships have to do, I think when you look at that and when you think of the team that you join, it's a pretty overwhelming thing. I think for any young person who's thinking about the military, I would say think about joining this team of people where you really are valued. And I know that a lot of times on ships, sailors feel like they're not being heard, but I think they really are. I think that the Navy actually does a pretty good job of listening to the sailors. Every survey that goes out, the Navy actually at the highest level sees the results and actually tries to make change. There's a lot of policy change that's made as a result of these surveys. So, I think if a young person sees that their opinion does matter, that it does count, I think that does help. I think it does show them that if they join the military, in particular the Navy, I think they're going to find the experience very rewarding, much more rewarding than they actually thought it would be. And I speak from experience. I thought I was going to do four years, and it's been twenty years since then, twenty-four years since then. I think most folks will find the experience just unimaginable.

LINDSAY:
I want to close by asking you both a question about leadership, because in my years of interacting with people in the United States military across all the services, what I have been struck by is the amount of time and effort, conscious time and effort, that services put into teaching people leadership, giving service members the opportunity to develop leadership skills, and leadership does require skills. How do you think about leadership? What advice do you have about leadership? And maybe we could begin with you, Kristen.

THOMPSON:
Jim, I would say, when it comes to leadership, it's all very human centric. At least for me in my leadership philosophy, if I were to throw my hands up and say, "On one side is processes and the other side is relationships." For me, it's always going to skew toward relationships because I think that's really the beauty of leadership, at least in my brain. And I think people are absolutely worth it. We owe them a lot. Me, as a leader, I'm going to ask a lot of the people that I have the great fortune of leading. I tell them all the time, "Hey, listen, I'm going to ask you to do some really hard things, but on top of that, I'm going to ask you to do those really hard things well." And so when you leave them with that expectation, undoubtedly they will not let you down. And then, I think you don't have to tell them this every single day, but I think part of leadership is that human to human connection where you're reminding them, and I had a boss that would always say this, that they feel relevant, valued, and loved. I think that is really important, especially when we ask them to do those hard things and do those hard things well. I also used to say a lot of times when I was putting people out into harm's way, going out and flying some really tough combat missions is, if they go out and they fight hard, but they love harder, that is really the mantra that we want to have with our folks is that they know that what they're doing is highly prized and highly valued, not only by me, but by leadership up and down the chain.

LINDSAY:
John, let me ask you the same question, and I want to stress a point implicit in what Kristen just said. Leadership is important because you are asking people to make sacrifices, potentially the ultimate sacrifice. And anyone who spent any time studying warfare over the millennia knows that it is leadership at the end of the day, that it is critical to winning even more so than the equipment you might have. How do you think about leadership?

BARRIENTOS:
I think leadership in the context of a Navy ship or submarine, it's interesting because in the end, when you deploy, it's the people next to you that you really do your best to succeed. I used to talk to the sailors when we deployed that it's going to be each other they're going to depend on. In the Navy, on a ship, we're unique in that if we go into battle, we are all in the same boat together.

LINDSAY:
Literally.

BARRIENTOS:
Literally. So the captain on down to the most junior sailor, we're all in the same fight. And if you look at some historical examples, despite the hierarchy in the system, when it all comes down to it, the leaders show themselves and the leaders stand out. I think one of the beauties of the military is that the reality is you get leadership early and often. As a junior sailor, you have to follow orders and do your job, but eventually you'll be put into a leadership position before you even know it, much sooner than you would as your civilian counterpart. And the same goes for an officer, especially an officer, because once you get to a ship, you get assigned to a division and you're the division officer. So, I think the idea of leadership early and often permeates throughout the military, I think. Sailors, soldiers, airmen, they'll find that the skills that they get, the leadership hard and soft skills are going to be immeasurable. And when they compare it to their civilian counterparts, they're going to find that they're miles ahead of their counterparts at the same age, and it's because of the military. It's because of the hardships they've gone through, the hard decisions they've had to make. They'll realize that they're operating at fast speed and everybody else is at slow speed. It's been reassuring to me to find over the years when I keep in touch with these guys and then they reach out to me, they said, "Hey, you were right." I separated from the Navy and I've moved on to this other company, and I'm finding myself light years ahead of everybody else because of the skills that I learned in the Navy.

LINDSAY:
On that note, I'll close up The President's Inbox for this week. My guests have been Captain John Barrientos and Colonel Kristen Thompson. Both are visiting military fellows here at the Council on Foreign Relations. John, Kristen, thank you very much for joining me on this episode of The President's Inbox, and also thank you very much for your service.

THOMPSON:
Thanks, Jim.

BARRIENTOS:
Thank you, Jim.

LINDSAY:
Please subscribe to The President's Inbox on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And leave us a review. We love the feedback. You can email us at [email protected]. A transcript of our conversation is available on the podcast page for The President's Inbox on CFR.org. As always, opinions expressed on the President's Inbox are solely those of the host or our guests, not of CFR, which takes no institutional positions on matters of policy. Again, John and Kristen spoke today in their personal capacity and their views do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S. government generally or the Department of Defense specifically. Today's episode was produced by Ester Fang with Director of Podcasting Gabrielle Sierra. Special thanks go out to Michelle Kurilla for her research assistance and to Justin Schuster for his editing assistance. This is Jim Lindsay. Thanks for listening.