Religion and Foreign Policy Webinar: Religion, Identity, and Duty in the U.S. Military

FASKIANOS: Thank you. Welcome to the Council on Foreign Relations Religion and Foreign Policy Webinar Series. I’m Irina Faskianos, vice president of the National Program and Outreach here at CFR. We appreciate you all joining us.

As a reminder, today’s webinar is on the record. And, as always, CFR takes no institutional positions on matters of policy.

We’re delighted to have Judy Malana, Anna Page, and Sarah Schechter with us today to discuss religious engagement in the U.S. military. Wayne MacRae will moderate today’s discussion.

Wayne MacRae retired from the U.S. Navy Chaplain Corps with the rank of captain in May 2024. Throughout his career he covered operational tours with the Navy and Marine Corps, as well as major staff assignments including the U.S. Sixth Fleet in Naples, Italy and the Joint Staff at the Pentagon. Chaplain MacRae is now a member of the Strategic Religious Engagement Hub Advisory Board, an initiative hosted by Georgetown University’s Berkley Center for Religion, Peace, and World Affairs. I’m going to turn it over to him to introduce our distinguished panelists. He will engage them in conversation for twenty-five minutes or so, and then we’ll turn to all of you for your questions, comments, and to engage you all in this forum. So, Wayne, over to you.

MACRAE: Well, thank you, Irina. I’m grateful for the opportunity to be here, appreciate your invitation. And appreciate the Council on Foreign Relations also for this opportunity to moderate this discussion on religion, identity, and duty in the U.S. military. Likewise, I would like to welcome each of our participants. I recognize names of several who are attending, and I certainly wish that we could be personally in the same space together just to enjoy that fellowship.

Before I introduce our three panel members, allow me to briefly make a comment that hopefully will help guide our discussion as well as cover a few essentials on military chaplaincy. As this discussion is hosted by the Council on Foreign Relations, it is important to note that when we talk about religion, identity, and duty in the U.S. military, we’re not only talking about issues of internal culture or individual belief. Increasingly, these issues intersect with U.S. foreign policy and national security. Our military personnel operate in environments that are deeply religious. They operate alongside allies and partners who observe how we balance our religious freedoms, our unit cohesion, and civilian control of our military. How the U.S. military navigates religious identity at home affects its legitimacy abroad. It can impact U.S. credibility when advocating for religious freedom internationally. And it influences our ability to engage faith-shaped societies in conflict, competition, and cooperation.

Now, military chaplaincy stands at the intersection, advocating for individual belief, promoting a culture of religious and spiritual readiness, and helping the institution navigate the religious elements of the environments where we operate. Collectively, military chaplains represent 143 different religious organizations that are formally partnered with the U.S. military to provide approximately 5,000 Active, Reserve, and National Guard chaplains across all the services to support the needs of over two million Active, Reserve, and National Guard members, and then all their family members beyond that number. Now today we’re honored to have three chaplains representing each of the service chaplaincies, the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force.

Judy Malana, who is a captain in the U.S. Navy and a chaplain. She has for over thirty years now served the Navy and the Marine Corps, and also served with Coast Guard. She is currently stationed in Washington, D.C., with Naval District Washington, and represents the General Counsel of the Assembly of Gods. She is also properly the most educated panel member we have. She is alumni of the U.S. Naval War College, the Marine Corps University, the National Graduate School, Bethel Theological Seminary, the University of California, Los Angeles. And she is currently a Ph.D. candidate with Salve Regina University up in Rhode Island. So, Judy, it’s good to have you with us.

Our second panel member is Sarah Schechter. Sarah retired after twenty years with the Air Force as a chaplain, where she attained the rank of major and retired in February of 2024. She answered the call to service right after 9/11 and made seven deployments to Iraq and theaters involved with Operation Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom, and Operation New Dawn. She also did seven of those deployments during the first six years of her daughter’s life. And so, Sarah, thank you for that sacrifice that you were willing to make and that your family shared in all these years. Of note, one of the events that I think was very impactful on Sarah was her support of Afghan evacuees as part of the noncombatant evacuation, Operation Allies Welcome. She also happened to be the first and only female rabbi to have served in the U.S. Air Force. And she has published “A Rabbi in the Military” in The Sacred Calling: Four Decades of Women in the Rabbinate. So, Sarah, good to have you with us, also.

And our final panelist here is Anna Page. She is an Episcopal priest, currently serving on active duty in the U.S. Army. She is also joining us from an assignment in the SOUTHCOM area of operations down in Honduras. Her previous assignment was in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. And I believe, if I remember correctly, Anna is halfway through her assignment in South Carolina—or, in South America—or SOUTHCOM area, and is, I think, looking forward to coming back to the United States after that assignment. She is a graduate of Duke Divinity School and is currently pursuing her doctor of ministry with Virginia Theological Seminary. So, again, it’s good to have all three of you with us today participating in this discussion.

Well, what I’d like to do at this point, I’ve got a few primary questions we’d like to start out with, and this first question I would like to put out for each of you to comment on. And if I could, I’d like to ask that we just kind of go in the order in which you were introduced—Judy first, Sarah second, and then Anna—before we move on to other questions.

So the first question: Being mindful that each of you operate in slightly different spaces—the policy world of D.C., conducting engagements in a foreign country, or having represented a low-density faith group in various areas of conflict—how do each of you understand the topic of religion, identity, and duty from the context that you are familiar with? And then, what issues or challenges do you see as lying before us?

MALANA: Well, Wayne, thanks for that question. And first off, I just want to thank Irina for the invitation and to the Council on Foreign Relations to be part of this esteemed panel. Grateful for those who registered to participate. I hope that you all will walk away with something to take with you in thinking about these important issues.

And just as a disclaimer, I am speaking at home in my personal capacity, and my opinions and statements do not represent the United States Navy or the Department of War. I’m speaking in my personal capacity from nearly thirty years of experience as a Navy chaplain serving the Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard—forward-deployed, ashore, overseas, and here in Washington, D.C..

And to think about religion, identity, and duty, I first want to speak about the duty part. And as a Navy chaplain, my experience has been, in that duty, is operating in the four capabilities that we provide as Navy chaplains. And that’s first and foremost to provide religious ministry to those of our own faith traditions, and for me as a Christian that would be leading worship services or Bible studies. It’s also providing religious ministry to support to others of different faith traditions and working with local clergy to find those resources to provide for the free exercise of religion for those inside of our command. It’s also to care—to provide confidential counseling, pastoral counseling, to those of all faiths and none, caring for everybody in their command and their families. And lastly, that’s advisement—advisement within our commands, advising our commands senior enlisted on issues such as morals, morales, ethics, decision-making. And then, as we’ll discuss later, also outside of the command in a particular mission where we are engaging religious leaders of our partner nations. So, when I’m thinking about duty, that’s what I’m thinking about as far as chaplaincy.

As far as the religion part, as chaplains, as you mentioned, we are all recognized by our different faith traditions. And with that, there is the notion of operating in a pluralistic environment, and having the understanding that we will not compromise our own faith traditions but really work and collaborate to facilitate the exercise of religious freedom for our servicemembers and their family. So that’s what I think about when duty and religion.

And the identity part is the part where we as individuals have to think about to what extent can I operate in this pluralistic institution, still being faithful to my religious traditions but really ensuring that everyone else can exercise their, or not to exercise, a religious faith? And that is really kind of the crux of the issue: Do your values align with the values of the institution? And I could say as myself and practicing chaplaincy for nearly thirty years the answer is yes, because the institution of the military, of our Navy in particular—honor, courage, commitment, service above self—those are values that absolutely resonate with me and as a legacy of service in my family. So that’s what I think about as far as religion, identity, and duty.

And the other part is we are noncombatants serving in the profession of arms. And what does that look like to support warfighters in the profession of arms when we know that warfighting in and of itself requires when called upon lethality, right, controlled violence to break the will of our enemies, to do our political will? It’s political—politics by any other means. And what does that mean for us as noncombatants to support our warfighters?

And so those are things to think about as far as our identity as chaplains and come to grips with: What is our—who are we and what are—what is our position in that organization? And I could say it’s an honor and a sacred privilege to be called a chaplain; to have that sacred confidentiality; where—to live and deploy amongst our sailors, Marines and Coast Guard; and to be there for that support for them. So it’s really been an honor to do that.

So thanks for that question.

MACRAE: Great. Thank you, Judy,

Sarah.

SCHECHTER: Thank you. Thank you. And also an incredible honor to be here with you.

And, Judy, thank you for giving that disclaimer; I too, am speaking for myself. And also thank you, Judy, for giving that broad overview of the scope of what we provide as chaplains.

So let me focus now on answering that maybe as someone who is a Jewish chaplain, and what does duty, religion, and identity mean in that capacity. I will say that, also speaking from the duty perspective first, that many Jews—since even before the formation of the United States, that many Jews feel compelled to join the service out of a sense of gratitude to the United States for providing a safe country to freely practice our religion. So many Jews do join as a way of saying thank you. That has historically been true. And people join for many different reasons, but I want to share that.

And then, in terms of religion, it is not easy, necessarily, for people who are non-Christians to be fully observant in their religion in the United States military. Let me also say, though, that the military I have found, bends over backwards and goes to extreme—to great lengths and really blesses our servicemembers—I’ve been blessed as someone who is Jewish—to try to bridge that gap where—between what is the normative way of life, which follows more of the Christian pattern, versus one who has their sacred days on different days of the week, for example. So there is that tension and incredible beauty when people try to support each other in that capacity.

And in terms of identity, many Jews who are serving in the military are not necessarily that religious, yet they still maintain a strong Jewish identity. And it is incredible that the military does go to such lengths for a very small number of people in order to provide religious accommodation. And that’s what we do for each other in the military chaplain corps. And it has been and was one of the greatest honors of my life to serve in that capacity.

Thank you.

MACRAE: Thank you, Sarah.

Anna.

PAGE: Thank you, Chaplain MacRae. And, Chaplain Malana, Chaplain Schechter, thank you both for your comments.

I echo the thanksgivings given by my colleagues already, as well as the disclaimer. It truly is an honor and a privilege to be here.

I recognize as the one O3 on our panel that I inhabit a slightly different position than my colleagues here. So as I think about religion, identity, and duty, I have in mind my junior servicemembers who are navigating those facets of themselves actively day in and day out. So more of a tactical approach to chaplaincy is where I find myself in my career right now.

So when I think about religion or the set of organized beliefs and practices that we hold in relation to a higher power, I think about identity, of who we know ourselves to be; and I think about duty, of our obligation to country, to Constitution, to the laws and institutional ethics. For me, what comes to mind is how these three facets of ourselves intersect. And often I find servicemembers wrestling through the tension, just like Chaplain Malana was mentioning—the tension of when we can integrate our whole selves into our commitment to service, and the tension when perhaps sometimes we feel as though our commitment to our religion or commitment to identity or commitment to duty might be at odds with one another.

But I find that for myself as a chaplain in meeting with our servicemembers and our family members one of my biggest responsibilities right now is helping our servicemembers integrate those aspects of themselves. And I firmly believe that if we’re able to help people integrate their commitment to religion, identity, and duty, we’re able to create a more resilient and ethically minded force in the meantime; and when we think long term, we’re able to help prevent the onset of moral injury as servicemembers progress throughout their career.

And what has been really interesting to me in my career so far as an Army chaplain is—getting to work in both the European theater and the SOUTHCOM AOR, is that I’ve had the unique opportunity to expose servicemembers to cultures where religion, identity, and duty are fully integrated through work, home, practice; and in doing so and exposing our servicemembers to these other cultures, getting to journey with servicemembers to help integrate those facets of themselves into their daily practice as well, whether that be in a forward-deployed environment or back home stateside.

So thank you again for this opportunity. It is an honor to be here with you all. I’ll turn it back to you, Chaplain MacRae.

MACRAE: Thank you.

Clearly, I think one of the things that have come across in the three responses here is that—and I have to admit my own bias, but military service just has a way of stretching who we are as individuals; testing the mettle, if you would; certainly developing a clear sense of duty and identity. It’s a great way of life. It draws some wonderful things out in us.

I’d like to move into a second question that will take just a slightly different direction. Now, recent high-profile events such as Secretary Hegseth’s December 17 video announcing a military chaplaincy reset, and then also the December 10 Religious Liberty Commission hearing on religious liberty in the military, they highlight the realities of our civil military and religious overlap, if you would, with an eye toward foreign relations. What messages are we conveying with regards to the civilian control of the U.S. military? Judy, if I could go to you to respond first, please.

MALANA: Thank you, and thanks for that question. And I think—and I appreciate that question because it is relevant to what we are experiencing now.

And I—and my first reaction is we are apolitical. Those of us who serve in the military, we serve our commander-in-chief. And again, I’ve had five different commanders-in-chiefs, and as military officers we are apolitical in that regard. And I think the message that those dialogues send, that we are having these dialogues right now in our society and in the military, just underscores the importance of the exercise of religious freedom. To me, that’s what it—what it is saying. It is saying we emphasize that, not just in our military but in our society, in our government.

And I think, thinking about foreign affairs, it’s really underscoring the importance in our country, in our democracy, of the universal human right of religious freedom. It underscores other elements that are happening in our country. It underscores, for instance, the need for the ambassador at large for international religious freedom, or the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, or White House initiatives on faith. It underscores the importance of the exercise of religious freedom. So that’s where I see that dialogue is going, and I—and I just think it’s a positive.

And so that’s my reaction to that question, so thank you for that.

MACRAE: All right, Judy. Thank you.

Anna, I’m going to switch it up just a little bit and direct to you, please.

PAGE: Sounds good, Chaplain MacRae. If the Army has taught me anything, it’s to remain ready. (Laughter.)

So, in response to your question, what comes to my mind is the reality that when these discussions like Chaplain Malana was mentioning, discussions around religious freedom and the constitutional basis for the chaplain corps, when they’re handled transparently and professionally religious liberty reinforces our democratic norms. And the message that we want to convey is that the U.S. military is serving the Constitution, not a religious ideology or a political ideology, just like Chaplain Malana was mentioning.

And in particular when I think about my role as a chaplain and chaplains generally, chaplains really matter here in this conversation because I believe part of our responsibility is to absorb some of the tension that might be manifesting, and particular religious tension, instead of amplifying it. And our role isn’t to symbolize religious power in uniform, but it’s to help stabilize the force—stabilize us ethically, morally, spiritually, emotionally—under command and civilian authority. So that way, we’re reinforcing trust, we’re reinforcing cohesion, helping people feel seen and heard, so we can be the best versions of ourselves to further serve our commitment and our duty.

I’ll turn it back to you, Chaplain MacRae.

MACRAE: All right. Thank you, Anna.

And, Sarah, please.

SCHECHTER: Thank you.

I mean, as has been said, and beautifully, by Judy and Anna, a chaplain is to provide basically a non-anxious presence. And whatever that we can do to mitigate chaos, and to provide and nurture an environment of stability, is going to help serve the needs of the people, and it’s going to overall help people focus on their—on their job, so—which is to defend our country. So, without repeating what has already been said already very beautifully, I mean, I completely agree we are in a state of a lot of flux and turmoil, and whatever we can do to foster an environment of stability, I think, is a blessing for our people.

MACRAE: All right. Thank you.

I think what I hear across all three responses is the beauty of our system, in which those first principles and values of freedom, in our case religious freedom, as we continue to hold those and adhere to them it does speak strongly to the beauty of our system. And especially the fact that it’s—there are principles that override and go beyond any particular administration or civilian leadership, because that is part of the question. Civilian leadership can change, but the principles that guide us remain constant. And as long as we keep it that way, I think we portray a very valuable message to those partners that we have in the world.

I’m going to squeeze out time for our third question here. And again, I’m enjoying the mixture of responses that you bring. So I’m going to put this final question out to each of the three of you, mindful where we’re kind of pushing a little bit on time. And then once we’ve finished this, we’ll go for questions from the participants here.

So, now, whether serving as a Navy chaplain with commander, Logistics Group Western Pacific; or those who are part of the religious support team at Africa Command; or even reserve chaplains who might be serving at Joint Task Force Horn of Africa; or even National Guard chaplains who are operating under the State Partnership Program; religious support teams across the spectrum are increasingly engaging with foreign military chaplains and religious leaders. Now, given our complexities of religion, identity, and duty, what opportunities, what challenges, or what risks do we incur, and what benefits might there be, from religiously identified military members being out there and engaging with partners and allies? And, Sarah, if you would, please, I’ll let you take this first.

SCHECHTER: Thank you.

So I think that it is an incredible blessing for us to interact with other faith groups. And whenever we are able to do that and we do not squander that precious opportunity, it is a blessing. In Isaiah 42 we are called to be a light unto the nations. Everyone is a light to the nations. And so we should learn from each other’s light. And I mean, there are—the risk is not engaging with each other, and it’s a terribly lost opportunity. So my prayer is that we will do more and more of that, that we will learn from each other. And I think that will only build strong—you know, stronger relations and greater understanding and respect for each other’s cultures.

MACRAE: All right. Thank you.

Anna, if I could call on you now, and very mindful that this is what you’re doing every day, I think.

PAGE: Thanks, Chaplain MacRae. Appreciate it.

And, Chaplain Schechter, that prayer that we continue to do this work is beautiful, and I echo that entirely. So thank you for offering that to us.

And I firmly believe that as we think about the opportunities and the risks of doing strategic religious engagements or religious leader engagements, the opportunities are incredible and the risks are also real. For me, though, to underscore the opportunities first, is the opportunity that this presents us lies in trust-building. Oftentimes religious leaders can inhabit spaces, and in particular moral and cultural spaces, that our—that other forms of diplomacy perhaps cannot reach, and that’s diplomacy across the spectrum of the conflict continuum and across time. So it’s really important for us as chaplains, as religious leaders who are embedded bridge-builders in organizations, to maintain religious awareness, cultural awareness, cultural humility, because as we do that we’re able to form relationships that strengthen the legitimacy of the U.S. military with our partner nations, that strengthen humanitarian cooperation, and also can help stabilize and lead to conflict prevention.

And with that said, the risks are also real and important to name, because we do—as Chaplain Schechter was alluding to, we do need to avoid exporting American religious frameworks or showing preference to one religious tradition over another, being perceived as advancing political or strategic objectives through religious means, because those are all extremely dangerous realities that then jeopardize our position as nonpartisan, unbiased religious leaders within our military. So there is a reality that the line between engagement and entanglement is thin. But as long as we’re able to navigate our positionality with that humility, that cultural literacy, and constant attention to command authority and priorities, the benefits—the opportunities that come from religious leader engagements and strategic religious engagements are absolutely incredible.

Thanks, Chaplain MacRae.

MACRAE: Anna, thank you. I appreciate your sharing those insights that are—you’re seeing them in place every day.

Judy, like to give you a final opportunity on this question, please.

MALANA: And thanks for that. And thanks, Sarah and Anna, for sharing your experiences.

And absolutely agree there’s fantastic opportunities, certainly at that tactical level. And understanding that as chaplains, we are operating in the context of a military mission under the direction of our commander in that particular mission.

And I’ve had wonderful opportunities to have religious leader engagements on my deployments and living overseas. I think one of the challenges is that sometimes it’s dependent upon the particular chaplain on that mission, of the particular commander, what that mission set is and the scope of that. What I would like to see is more formal training on religious leader engagement. I know in my experience there hasn’t been formal military training on that, and how to do it, and how to do it well. I would like to—I think that could be and is a challenge, to have that strategic training.

And then, also, alignment more on a strategic level about working with, for instance, the State Department and some of their lines of effort on diplomacy, and how can the military work more closely on what other government elements are there in a particular area. And, Wayne, you could probably speak to that, being on the Joint Staff and working, you know, with different combatant commands, and having folks from the State Department or nongovernmental agencies and organizations who are working with religious leader engagement.

So those are some challenges that I bring to the group. Thank you.

MACRAE: Great. Thank you, Judy. And since you teed that up, let me—let me just take a moment or two to comment.

So, obviously, there’s been changes in how the various government agencies are operating or set up and established. And so part of what was mentioned in the introduction with my activities involved with the advisory group for the Strategic Religious Engagement Hub, Berkley Center over at Georgetown. And that is a place where there’s been a concerted effort to pull together a lot of the resources, the training, and the knowledge on doing strategic religious engagement. And if I remember correctly from earlier comments, there may be a future conversation around some of that work.

We have run through our time for this section of questions. Before we go to just the questions from participants, I do want to thank each of you on the panel for the very thoughtful responses that you’ve provided for each of these questions. I think we’ve provided a good general platform for the questions that are about to come.

So I’ll turn this back over to the staff here as they bring questions to us.

OPERATOR: Thank you. We will now begin the participant Q&A period.

(Gives queuing instructions.)

We will take the first question from Tom Reese. Please accept the unmute prompt.

Q: Thank you very much.

I guess my question has to do with Archbishop Broglio’s statement. He’s the Catholic military archbishop, and he recently in a BBC interview said that soldiers in good conscience could refuse an order to invade Greenland. Now, he’s not a chaplain, but he is the Catholic archbishop for the military. I guess my question is, what do you think of his statement? And what advice should chaplains give soldiers and naval—sailors about this kind of thing and the following of what they consider a(n) illegal and immoral order?

MACRAE: All right. So what I heard, Tom, is the news from two days ago of the leader of the Archdiocese for the Military Services having raised the question and the issue that in the context of an invasion of Greenland this would be perhaps a time where military servicemembers, particularly those under the Archdiocese of Military Services, might be looking at having to resist an order, a question of whether it’s legal or not. And I did hear you mention something about—in there about naval officers and sailors, so my first thought was, Judy, can I throw this question your way, please?

MALANA: And thanks for that question, because that’s certainly an important topic. And I applaud the archbishop for giving pastoral guidance to his flock, and that’s what we as—in faith traditions look to our religious leaders, our faith leaders to give us guidance when we are faced with any situation that we seek counsel on. And so I applaud him absolutely for giving spiritual guidance to the flock.

And what—as far as if the orders are illegal/legal, I’m not in a position to discern that, to say what is legal or illegal. I would assume that orders from my commander are legal, but if I had questions I would certainly wrestle with that and seek guidance from my faith leader on what my options are—whether to not follow them, whether to simply say I cannot serve in the military anymore. Those are very personal questions that people will need to wrestle with. And it’s just not illegal orders; it’s other things that may require religious waivers. And we’ve seen that in our chaplain career: folks who are seeking waivers from immunization, folks who are seeking waivers for how they wear their hair. So the issues—these issues are not new. There are means to accommodate these kinds of things.

And also—and many of you maybe have worked with conscientious objectors in the military, people who have joined the military and realized, hey, I can’t serve in this military because now I’m a conscientious objector. And that policy has been in place in the military, and I’ve walked sailors and Marines through that process. So it’s really nothing new as far as the options that are before servicemembers.

Thank you.

OPERATOR: We will take the next question from Reverend Jerad Morey. Please accept the unmute prompt.

Q: Hello. Jerad Morey, Minnesota Council of Churches. We’re in Minnesota. We certainly solicit all of the prayers that you have to send our way right now.

I’m curious, in your role as chaplains the military is a microcosm of society at large. And while the military is itself apolitical, it certainly contains people who have often polarizingly opposite worldviews, and identities, and perspectives. And I wonder that, as a chaplain, how do you curate immunity or engage in any sort of intra-unit depolarization, especially with regard to those topics, perhaps from external society where disagreement risks unit cohesion or effectiveness? Do you have a gauge to figure out whether a topic rises to that level? If you do, what tactics or techniques do you use to help people with extremely different perspectives within your own units get along with each other for the sake of the mission?

SCHECHTER: Yeah. That’s a great question.

MACRAE: Sarah, I hear you acknowledging.

SCHECHTER: (Laughs.)

MACRAE: I don’t know if you just volunteered yourself.

SCHECHTER: Yeah. I would—I’m champing at the bit. I would like to respond to this.

MACRAE: Please.

SCHECHTER: It’s a great question. I think it’s an important question. And I think that this is an area where we as chaplains are involved.

I think it is incredibly important for people of divergent viewpoints to come together in dialogue, not to avoid each other but to come together, and to engage with each other. Too often, especially nowadays, people are walking away from each other; they are cutting each other off. And I find that that really is a trap that many of us fall into. Rather, we should come—draw closer to each other, try to listen to what we are saying as opposed to looking at a third party interpreting our words for us, but to come to each other and learn directly from each other.

It is not always productive to speak about political differences. Sometimes it’s more productive to just understand that we are in a politically, for example, diverse environment, and that we will honor each other for our differences, and to also try to have a relationship with each other. So I think that that is paramount. We should not disengage from each other. Always keep the door open for building relationships and coming together, because the opposite is what divides us. It breaks us. So—and that is also in the realm of chaos. So, if we want stability, that means coming together and honoring each other.

Thank you. Thank you for that great question.

OPERATOR: We will take the next question from Dr. Azza Karam. Please accept the unmute prompt, and state your name and affiliation.

Q: Greetings of peace to you. My name is Azza Karam. And I am president of Lead Integrity, which is a women-of-faith-led international consultancy company. And I’m delighted to see the range of women speaking so beautifully and eloquently.

And, Wayne, I’m one of your colleagues on the Strategic Religious Engagement Advisory Hub of Georgetown, so I’m delighted to see you here as well.

I’m very impressed by how much pride and wisdom you have shared. I was hoping I could see a Muslim chaplain, but, hey, nothing’s perfect, and it would be lovely to get that insight at some point in time. But one of the questions I would like to ask, and especially to Judy—I’m hoping that it will draw your cat back on the screen again; she’s beautiful. But one of the questions I wanted to ask Judy to elaborate upon, I come—I was—I was born in the Middle East. And given what’s been going on there, I’m not quite sure—I don’t have the confidence, shall we say, that greater or deeper engagement with religious leaders and political leaders, and bringing that into the military space, is necessarily a very good idea. I’m seeing tremendous tension and tremendous abuse of power on all sides.

So I’m kind of curious how you would see an advantage to trying to have a closer relationship with State Department. I worked in the U.N. for thirty years with religious engagement, on religious engagement, so I’m looking at it also from that international perspective. And you know, the Patriarch Kirill saying holy war, what’s been going on with Israel and the Palestinians, and you know, the religious leaders on both sides good and bad, and I’m kind of wondering, why would you necessarily see—like, what is it that you wish to see from a greater rapprochement between the political establishment and the military one on the religious side?

MALANA: Thanks for that question and allowing me to clarify.

Only from my perspective and experience, just that our efforts do not overlap or they’re not in alignment. And so that was the gist of saying that we could work closer with other agencies so that we are speaking in one voice. And so that was my perspective.

But as far as the broader perspective, I would turn that back over to Wayne and what you all are doing there on the tip of the spear, and real-world situations, and how that would play out. And I think that’s a critical—a critical conversation, so thank you for bringing that up because it is very difficult, as you say. And who has that?

And one of the groups that I work with in a personal capacity, with the Institute for Global Engagement with women faith leadership, where we’re working with women leaders of faith in countries, because we have found that the women in certain religious realms are certainly in some cases invisible, but as we have seen that women in society can sometimes bring about conversations and peace. And so I’ve just seen that in my personal capacity in working with a nonprofit that works with women faith leaders.

So I appreciate what you all are doing and bringing that conversation forward, because it is very critical for peace. Thank you.

MACRAE: If I could add onto that, you know, part of the reality is that the U.S. military, we are in so many different places. We’re meeting and interacting with so many different militaries and communities, as Anna is doing right now during her deployed time there in SOUTHCOM. So, in some regards, it’s not that chaplains are begging for the opportunity to step up and do these engagements, but I think it would also be a moral failure for us to not do it.

It’s difficult for any of us to understand every religious dynamic that goes on, and we need to get better at it. And, obviously, Doctor, as you know, that’s part of what the hub is all about, is trying to gather those resources in the military. There needs to continue—and “continue” might be the wrong word; there needs to be a strong effort put on providing the kind of training across all pay grades for military chaplains to be well-equipped to do this kind of work. Because the very nature of military assignments, you will be working in one place for three years, and then you get these things called orders, and you can find yourself—and I think Judy and I, having been in the Navy, can say you could be wearing a Marine Corps uniform one day, and then you execute a set of orders, go somewhere else; you could be wearing the Navy uniform, the Coast Guard uniform. You could find yourself in the United States enjoying the beach over in California, and then your next assignment you’re in a foreign country. And we don’t always have the time to get that training in the moment just before we take an assignment. So the military services, we can, I think, improve the across-the-board or pipeline training to equip our chaplains to do better in the kind of work that we find ourselves doing.

But thank you for asking that question.

SCHECHTER: Wayne, I just want to—may I just add one thing to that—

MACRAE: Please.

SCHECHTER: —to support what you’re saying?

In the military, there’s great emphasis on distinction, right? We have distinct services, distinct uniforms, and we have distinct religious faiths represented in the chaplain corps. What I also would love to see more of is that it’s not just that we are chaplains serving under the same roof in our individual programs, but that we are able to spend more time learning from each other. I think that is important. And the more we are able to operate in that capacity, to maintain one’s spiritual religious integrity while also collaborating in an interfaith way and open to learning from each other, the more we are able to do that within our own chaplain corps the greater we’ll be able to do that in the international capacity as well, I think.

MACRAE: Yes, definitely.

Anna, did you want to add anything?

PAGE: Yeah. (Laughs.) Thank you, Chaplain MacRae. I appreciate it. And Chaplain Malana And Chaplain Schechter responded beautifully to this question.

What I have to add is, you know, from that tactical level of chaplaincy, the part of the work that we’re doing down here in the SOUTHCOM AOR is doing different religious leader engagements and strategic religious engagements, in particular to build those bridges like we mentioned earlier between our servicemembers and the local community and populations in which we find ourselves. And part of the logic chain for that goes, if we can build deeper connection between our servicemembers and the communities in which we’re serving—whether that be here in SOUTHCOM, whether that be in a CONUS location, whether that be on a EUCOM rotation—but if we can build deeper understanding and connection where servicemembers feel embedded and connected to the local community, we’re more mindful of our actions, we’re more ethically inclined, and we’re able to more faithfully execute our duties and responsibilities. Said otherwise, what we are doing as chaplains, not just when it comes to religious leader engagements but in all of our work, is I firmly believe we are infusing humanity into what can sometimes feel like otherwise inhumane situations.

So that’s work that I’m seeing played out live in front of me every single day here. And though perhaps at a strategic level, we’re not yet seeing all of those efforts united in a synchronized way yet. At a tactical level, it is making a difference in a very, very human way.

So thank you, Chaplain MacRae, for asking my opinion on that as well.

MACRAE: No, thank you. What I heard you say is that we’re all collectively becoming better because we’re willing to risk the engagement.

PAGE: I think so.

MACRAE: All right. Thank you.

Sam, we’re ready for the next question.

OPERATOR: We will take the next question from Corey Trusty. Please accept the unmute prompt, and state your name and affiliation.

Q: Hey. Sorry, I hope you can hear me. I apologize. I’m kind of in a—I’m out moving and about. But I did have a question for you guys. I put it in the chat. My name is Colonel Corey Trusty. I’m one of the visiting military fellows at the CFR.

And one of the things I was wondering, that as Christian nationalism gains visibility in public life some believers are choosing to describe themselves as followers of Christ rather than Christians in order to distance themselves from—their faith from political or racial ideologies. From your perspective of military chaplains, do you see signs of a growing divide within Christianity, particularly where elements of White supremacy become intertwined with religious identity? And how does this affect pastoral care and religious unity in the military?

MACRAE: I’m going to apologize, and I don’t know about the rest of the panel; I had great difficulty being able to clearly understand the question. Can you repeat that, please?

OPERATOR: I can read the question aloud.

MACRAE: All right. Thank you.

OPERATOR: As Christian nationalism gains visibility in public life, some believers are choosing to describe themselves as followers of Christ rather than Christians in order to distance their faith from political or racial ideologies. From your perspective as military chaplains, do you see signs of a growing divide within Christianity, particularly where elements of White supremacy become intertwined with religious identity? And how does this affect pastoral care and religious unity in the military?

MACRAE: Anna, do you feel comfortable taking that question?

PAGE: I do. Yes, sir. Thank you, Chaplain MacRae. And, sir, thank you for that question.

I hear a lot of concern undergirding that question, and the concern is understandable. Again, I’d like to speak, though, from a very tactical level of chaplaincy where I’m offering day in and day out direct pastoral care to our servicemembers and to our family members. And I’m honored, privileged, and blessed to be able to say that I’m not seeing growing division amongst our servicemembers. Rather, what I’m seeing—so I’m seeing individuals asking very thoughtful questions around their spirituality, around their religious beliefs, around their convictions, and muddling through those as I think is appropriate for any person of faith.

So, from my standpoint, we’re not seeing division. Instead, we’re seeing persons form into more ethical, mindful humans who ultimately, whether that’s while they’re serving or after their time in service, will be better citizens of the world as a result. So, again, that’s from the direct level of individual pastoral care, but I have been delighted to see some of the thoughtful, challenging questions that individuals are asking as they grow in their own faith and spirituality and perspectives.

MACRAE: Great. Thank you for taking that Anna.

PAGE: Yes, sir.

OPERATOR: We will take the next question from Rabbi Melinda Zalma. Please accept the unmute prompt.

Q: Hello, friends. So I’m also—besides a rabbi, I’m a chaplain in the U.S. Navy Reserve—I know three of the four of you know that—and actually just recently was called to be serving full-time on an active position with the Marine Corps Forces Reserve starting in April. So excited about that. And, Anna really wonderful to get your acquaintance. You’ll be hearing from me.

So just really inspired and reinforced with my own beliefs and reasons for serving in the military. And one of the things that you touched on before was about how so many people with different backgrounds and different ideas can work together, and you’ve all touched on it somewhat. But one of the things about being Reserve that has been a privilege is to take that into the civilian world. So I would love to hear, from your experiences, where have you seen what you’ve learned from being a chaplain in such a diverse service that helps with the polarization within our civilian community?

MACRAE: Sarah, would you like to take that first?

SCHECHTER: Sure. I’d be honored to.

Hi, Melinda. Great to—so glad you’re here.

I mean, one of the ways that my husband and my family and I—actually, my husband is a rabbi as well, and one of the ways that we translate this into the civilian world is by engaging in interfaith dialogue. And I mean, that is something that we are very passionate about, and that we do not have to have shared beliefs in order to have mutual respect and appreciation for each other’s beliefs and culture, and to be in a state of awe of the beauty that exists within the realm of another perspective. So, also, I mean, we love to have these enormous sabbath dinners and invite everyone of various faiths or no faith to be present, and for us really to just learn from each other, and to be in each other’s presence, and to talk, and build those relationships. So I think that that is incredibly important for our communal sense of wellbeing, actually.

Thank you.

MACRAE: If I could add, Melinda, it’s good to hear your voice again.

OPERATOR: We will take our next question from Adelle Banks. Please accept the unmute prompt.

Q: Hello. My name is Adelle Banks. I work for Religion News Service.

And I was struck by Chaplain Anna Page’s speaking of the religious leader engagement and it having benefits and risks. But I’m wondering if she could give a quick example or two of, like, what kinds of religious leaders she’s working with, what kind of engagement has happened, so that we have a better idea of what you’re talking about. Thank you.

PAGE: Yeah, definitely. Thank you for that question, Adelle, and the ability to provide a few examples.

So two examples come to mind. There’s an internal military-to-military example that I have, and then a military-to-civilian example.

The military-to-military example occurred when I had a rotation in the European theater where we had the opportunity as chaplains to engage with Polish military chaplains. So that’s one example of enhancing our interoperability across our partner forces such that deeper connection, understanding, and trust was built. So, again, that was chaplain-to-chaplain, internal-to-military experience that I had.

Then the civilian—or, the civilian-to-military connection is occurring around me here in my current location. We have had the opportunity to conduct what we refer to as chapel hikes, which are opportunities to bring servicemembers from our installation here in our location out into the local community, where we do a food distribution and community-building event. And through that, we as religious leaders within the military, so military chaplains, are working with leaders in the local communities to identify the needs of the community and see where we might be able to fill some of those needs at minimum through relationship building, at maximum through food-distribution programs. And again, what that’s doing, it’s establishing trust between the military installation here, and our servicemembers, and the local community that surrounds us.

So I hope those examples are helpful. Again, that’s a military-to-military and a military-to-civilian example that I’ve experienced in my service so far.

OPERATOR: We will take the next question from Christie Kilby. Please accept the unmute prompt, and state your name and affiliation.

Q: Hello. Thank you. I’m Christina Kilby from James Madison University.

I’m wondering, I hear so much about the tactical level of the influence that you have on your troops, and that’s really encouraging and inspiring. I’m curious about what kind of moral influence chaplains have higher up in the chain of command. Is that part of your duty, to provide moral advice that shapes policy and strategy? How much influence do you have?

MACRAE: Judy, would you like to take that question?

MALANA: Sure. And thank you for that question.

And it’s part of what we do as chaplains to advise our command, and that can happen in different ways. It happens through relationships and trust building, where you can walk into a commanding officer’s office and simply give advice on what you’re hearing. And I had an opportunity to work as a policy advisor for the Navy, and in that role to speak not just representing servicemembers, and issues of readiness and retention and recruiting, but also coming with this human perspective coming from a chaplain to weigh in on policy matters and looking at things from a chaplain lens, someone who has been at that tactical level walking with their servicemembers and their families through hardships, being forward-deployed with them, and bringing that perspective up to policymakers, and to be able to articulate those particular challenges. And so those are the ways that we can do it. We could do it informally as we advise commands on what we’re seeing—not disclosing any names or breaking any confidentiality, but simply saying here’s the temperature of the command climate; here’s what we may do.

And in our case, in cases like with my commanding officer: Chaplain, tell me what’s going on. What do you see without—again, respecting confidentiality, to see how they could be a better leader? But then also formally, to be invited to policy discussions and to weigh in from a chaplain perspective.

So I would say, absolutely chaplains minister inside of the institution, but we also minister to the institution, bringing that moral guidance, bringing the ethical decision-making. And I’ve had critical conversations with very, very, very senior leaders on particular issues where I would have to say to the senior leader, you know, with all due respect, just because that wasn’t your experience doesn’t mean that’s not happening in the fleet, and maybe broadening their perspective in a—in a respectful way, as invited, to kind of just give that perspective.

And that’s what we bring to those at the hierarchy of our organizations. We can operate at the tactical level, but we have access to those senior leaders to bring that guidance when we’re invited to. So thank you for that question.

FASKIANOS: Alas, I think that brings us to the close of our hour. So I really wanted to thank you all for today’s discussion. To all of you, I know we had a number of questions, still-raised hands; I’m sorry I could not get to all of you. But I think this has been a really productive hour, and we appreciate your insights and sharing your experiences with us.

So thank you to Chaplain MacRae, and Chaplain Malana, Chaplain Page, and Chaplain Schechter. We really appreciate your being with us today.

We encourage you to write us at [email protected] with suggestions and questions or feedback for future webinars, and we look forward to continuing this dialogue. Thank you all.

(END)

This is an uncorrected transcript.